New naga unit - revised, now testing!

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Yogibear
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Post by Yogibear »

scott wrote:It's like the wraith in reverse. The wraith problem was fixed by making it easy to kill. I'm sure someone will come up with something similar for this guy.
The wraith problem is much easier to fix because it is mostly used on land. And like with this naga ranged attacks are the way to kill it (go for it with melee and you have a real problem!). But there are far fewer water units, and most of them don't have ranged attacks. As i see it you either need a decent ranged attack or very low hitpoints for the new naga unit (which might even violate RIPLIB).
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

Umm... have you playtested it yet? It's by no means as overpowering as you are suggesting. If anything, Loyalist merman are still the kings of the water.

I wouldn't be opposed to decreasing the hitpoints of the naga depthstalker, and possibly as consolation, grant 70% evasion for shallow water.

And, you don't have to worry about violating RIPLIB with an alternate advancement (or so I thought), as long as another advancement is strictly superior.

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Post by Sapient »

Ranger M wrote:Maybe a really bad resistance to fire, cos they spend so much time underwater that they hate warmth, let alone any kind of heat.
In addition to the enormous cold weakness? That poor little snakey wouldn't stand a chance. And uh... I think you meant to say mermen hate warmth. :D

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Post by Yogibear »

If you are on the mp server tonight, i would like to do some playtesting with you :) .
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

Sounds good. I can't guarantee when I'll be on, though.

I've just been running large-scale AI simulations using 4p - Lagoon. The results show that, by themselves, the Depthstalkers usually lose. But combined with the other Naga Warriors they hold a good chance (win some, lose some).

The type with the most wins was the Loyalist Mermen. I had expected the Rebel mermen to do better, but they almost never win (probably just a statistical error).

Which server are you on, Yogi? I downloaded v1.1, but it broke my WML. So, I'll probably go back to stable.

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Post by Soliton »

Hi,

I like the idea.
I have some questions though:
Why does it have nightstalk if the description says it's good in deep water? Wouldn't ambush in deep water fit better? Preferrably this ability would only be added at level 3.
What is the idea behind the steep defense increase on cave?
What is the idea behind changing the alignment to chaotic? Is it essential to the unit or could it also stay neutral?

Poison seems too powerful on water especially vs Merman Fighters that can only attack with melee. Backstab seems more balanced/easier to balance.

Oh and what did you mean with a reason to add the unit to the Northerners? What reason do you have in mind?


PS: Please don't talk about testing the balance vs the AI if you want to be taken seriously by me. :P
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

Glad to have you in the discussion, Soliton!
Soliton wrote:Why does it have nightstalk if the description says it's good in deep water? Wouldn't ambush in deep water fit better?
Yes, the submerged thread was where I got the idea for this unit,
but I didn't know they added that capability? I thought ambush was still restricted to Forest.
Soliton wrote: Preferrably this ability would only be added at level 3.
I wasn't planning on adding a level 3 unit (so that you have to weigh the cost against potentially becoming a Myrmidon).
Soliton wrote: What is the idea behind the steep defense increase on cave?
What is the idea behind changing the alignment to chaotic? Is it essential to the unit or could it also stay neutral?
The description doesn't go into a lot of detail, but it mentions the role as "brood guardians." This involves long hours of stealthily patrolling the dark caves where the eggs are hatched. The dark caves are similar to dark depths of water, so they are especially good in this environment. This is why their scales take on a dull appearance, because of receiving less sunlight. Also, this is why they change to chaotic-- not for philosophical reasons, moreso for their inherent bonus at fighting in darkness.
Soliton wrote: Poison seems too powerful on water especially vs Merman Fighters that can only attack with melee. Backstab seems more balanced/easier to balance.
Loyalists will have to go to villages to heal poison, as usual. The main problems are maps with large tracts of water with no villages. I think this only occurs with border water, which doesn't have strategic significance.

I didn't want to make it backstab, because then it would seem too much like the Phantom. Poison seems more serpentile. Then again, I'm willing to change it to backstab if that's what the developers prefer. :)
Soliton wrote: Oh and what did you mean with a reason to add the unit to the Northerners? What reason do you have in mind?
I think it would be nice to have a non-linear progression for nagas in the mainline, to add more strategy to water battles.
Soliton wrote: PS: Please don't talk about testing the balance vs the AI if you want to be taken seriously by me. :P
Yes, I thought you might say that. :lol:
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Post by romnajin »

Your thread made me think of a possible new terrain to add even more diversity to water maps; water cave, basically a half submerged cave.
Sorry for the meaningless post

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Post by Sapient »

Just a little announcement to those who have been following this thread. I've gotten word from Dragonking and Soliton that a version of the Naga Depthstalker will be considered for addition to the Northerners. Thank you, devs!

Changes of importance:

*special changed from poison to backstab
*ability nightstalk removed
*alignment changed to neutral
*damage increased to 5-4
*HP will be reduced (amount not specified)

Given all these changes, I will need to rewrite the description. Also, the name may possibly change, although the primary concerns right now are finishing the artwork and determining the HP.

Go to the beginning of the thread to download the test files.
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Post by rocinante »

I like this idea. It allows a counter to the other mermen, the netcaster is a powerful unit and that ranged attack is great against undead.

maybe give the level 3 version nightstalk, keep the backstab, give it 7-4?
northerners seem like they lack level 3 units in general. and this unit sounds like it would have higher defenses in deep water or swamp than shallow water because it's stealthy. still should have less hp than a myrmidon.

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Post by Sapient »

Yeah, the major holdout now is the Art department. Unless I suddenly acquire the art skills of a god, I will not be able to meet the heightened expectations being placed upon official-era units.

So in other words, this has been placed on infinite delay, despite its inherent coolness. :cry:
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JW
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Post by JW »

I decided to add this unit to the Era of Myths. 8)

It will be in the Warg faction in the next release. (EOMb2)

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Post by Flametrooper »

It could possibly have Submerge, like a skeleton. Fits the name.

-Happy thanksgiving!
hey.

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JW
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Post by JW »

Flametrooper wrote:It could possibly have Submerge, like a skeleton. Fits the name.

-Happy thanksgiving!
It already does!

Have a good one yourself!

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Post by Oreb »

Well Sapient should be happy about that, but Noy's still answer for it getting in game would be 'Noy'.

I like how Noy raises your hopes and then dashes then in a blaze of fury.

Anyway, if it had some updated graphics to fit the latest wesnoth style, it would be rather a rather good unit, and a good variant from the normal naga.
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