Addition to Knalgan Alliance

[Soliton]

I'm in favour of removing the Outlaws step by step from the Knalgan Alliance.

For one because i haven't seen any background information anywhere as to why this alliance was formed and because they don't seem to fit so well together gameplay wise. (Northern Rebirth might try to explain it but their alliance doesn't really involve the same units. There is also a vague reference in HttT to a trading alliance?)
Also it seems that the Knalgan Alliance is currently the strongest faction so the removal of some units shouldn't hurt that much.

I would propose to start removing some Outlaws from the Alliance, maybe thinking about a new name and some explanation as to why they team up with the dwarves (is there an explanation for the gryphons?).
I'm also open for suggestions to new units or additional branches for the dwarves to compensate, though new units might not really be needed.

An important point here is that these changes ideally go along with good play-testing, which unfortunately i don't see that much atm for trunk (version 1.1-svn). It would be great if there were more people available to playtest. (which doesn't include playing vs the ai, though general testing is good of course)
To find opponents it would probably be best to join #wesnoth, #wesnoth-dev or #wesnoth-mp.

[turin]

New units are not needed for MP, I agree. However, the aspect most people seem to be forgetting is campaign mode. Quite simply, dwarves are really boring to play in it. SoF is only 9 scenarios long, and the last two don't really count, but by scenario 4/7 you can often have all of the advanced units that it is possible to get with the Dwarves. (I don't include Berserkers in SP, for obvious reasons; that leaves the Dwarvish Lord, Dragonguard, and Sentinel. Plus the Dwarvish Runemaster, which I have added as a branch to the Dwarvish Fighter... 4 level 3 units is not impressive, especially compared to the 7 the elves have.)
So, I'm off to brainstorm some branches for the dwarf trees.


On the dwarf-outlaw alliance, my problem is, it makes no sense. I don't understand how saying "it is balanced" trumps the fact that it it completely illogical. If the Elves had been accidentally transformed into a swarm faction, people would object because it is completely out of character with the Elves. If that had happened, would saying that they were balanced as they were, and changing them to not be a swarm faction would require unbalancing, be acceptable at all? I hope not. It seems to me that the same is happening with the dwarf-outlaw alliance.

[Glowing Fish]

If that was a joke

If that wasn't a joke

So, please, admit it was a joke

It was a joke, although there have been worse ideas proposed.
Of course, if people would have liked it, I would have said it was serious!

[Temuchin Khan]

Personally, I think the best option for a new Dwarven ranged unit would be to branch it off the Thunderer.

Also, some new names:

Code: Select all

Dwarven Thunderer -> Dwarven Thunderguard -> Dwarven Dragonguard
                  -> Dwarven Donderbus -> Dwarven Harquebus

The Donderbus/Harquebus branch would have a high reps/ low damage ranged fire attack in contrast to the high damage/low reps of the Thunderer/Thunderguard/Dragonguard branch.

"The Donderbus is an awkward weapon, but some Thunderers, growing impatient with the limitation of being able to take only one shot, opt to use it rather than the thunderstick."

[turin]

is a "donderbus" similar to a "blunderbuss"?

If so, I don't really see how having it have low damage/high reps would really show the nature of the weapon. The most logical thing to do is give it one shot with variable amounts of damage (so, really likely to hit, but sometimes does 1 damage, sometimes 20). However, I have no clue what that would entail code-wise, balance-wise, whatever.

[Emmanovi]

If it as a 1-20 attack (just an example) you WOULD have a random damage betweeen 1 and 20...

[Tux2B]

1-20? Seems rather mighty.

[deserter]

If it as a 1-20 attack (just an example) you WOULD have a random damage betweeen 1 and 20...

Describe a situation where it's possible to hit once and miss the other 19 shots. 1-20 makes it predictable whereas Turins (1-20)-1 makes it totally unpredictable.

[turin]

If it as a 1-20 attack (just an example) you WOULD have a random damage betweeen 1 and 20...

Describe a situation where it's possible to hit once and miss the other 19 shots. 1-20 makes it predictable whereas Turins (1-20)-1 makes it totally unpredictable.

That's very true (and shows another problem with the idea of low dmg/high reps). However, that wasn't even my point.

My point was that, even with a blunderbuss type weapon, it shoots all of it's ammo at once. It works kind of like a hose - it sprays projectiles (rocks, metal balls, whatever) in a rather large area. However, it still takes a long time to reload (although not as much as a traditional musket). So, with a blunderbuss, you would still have the same feel that comes with a thunderstick - if you are near death, and the enemy attacks, you can shoot off one big blast that might really damage them before you die. However, it would be slightly worse at doing one, really large amount of damage, and be better at guaranteeing that some damage be dealt.

IMHO, a 1-20 attack doesn't do that at all. The simplest way to do it in-game would probably be a 10-2 attack, guaranteed to hit, but with a random number between -10 and 10 added to the amount of damage dealt. (So, really, it has two strikes that each do between 0 and 20 damage).

[Cuyo Quiz]

I think the simplest way would be to grab the cilinder, stuff it with whatever you get and then shoot. Irregular shoot with small booms and all kinds of shrapnel flying each in their own way, some arrive first, some arrive later, and some deviate.

I guess that a "shrapnel shot" wouldn't exactly be aimed, i'm thinking more like a mortar-like cilinder here, you put it facing the right direction, and then hope the consequent rain of scrap is enough to incapacitate the target. As i doubt the Dwarves have developed shrapnel shells, i guess all the scrap would arrive in a rather irregular way, so having many attacks would be better to represent the blow.

[Temuchin Khan]

It looks like we're back to my second set of names, then:

Code: Select all

Dwarven Thunderer -> Dwarven Thunderguard -> Dwarven Dragonguard
                  -> Dwarven Grapeshot -> Dwarven Hailshot

Other possibilities: Shrapnel Shot, Case Shot, Canister Shot, Carcass Shot

And historically, guns and cannons could be loaded with nails, pebbles, and all sorts of things, when bullets were not available. We could assume that the Dwarves do the same.

[Dark Helmet]

Maybe the dwarves could carry a kind of roman candle? They fired one shot at a time, with multiple shots.

[turin]

But changing the name doesn't fix the problem - having low dmg/high reps doesn't fit for the kind of weapon you're going for, regardless of the name. (Having less dmg/more reps than the Thunderer line would fit, but anything more than 2-3 reps would not.)

Anyway, Temuchin, what's your opinion on my proposal for new specialty (called scatter or somesuch), that would cause an attack to do a variable amount of damage?

[Temuchin Khan]

But changing the name doesn't fix the problem - having low dmg/high reps doesn't fit for the kind of weapon you're going for, regardless of the name. (Having less dmg/more reps than the Thunderer line would fit, but anything more than 2-3 reps would not.)

Grapeshot, true, was fired in one shot, but it consisted not of one cannonball but of multiple smaller pellets. Therefore, it had the same effect as multiple attacks. Still, your idea might reflect this just as well as would low damage/high reps

Anyway, Temuchin, what's your opinion on my proposal for new specialty (called scatter or somesuch), that would cause an attack to do a variable amount of damage?

I think it's very interesting.

[Zhukov]

Wouldn't this concept of scatter (induvidual attacks dealing variable amounts of damage) apply to pretty much every weapon?
If firing a blunderbuss/shotgun/grapeshot at the enemy would give different results each time (and I agree that it would) wouldn't swinging a sword at someone be the same?

However a unit doing a single blast of unpredictable damage would certainly be something unique.