The Dark Elves

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Emmanovi
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Post by Emmanovi »

By "kinetic" you mean "impact"?
If white was black and black was white, what would happen to zebra crossings?

avv
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Post by avv »

Emmanovi wrote:By "kinetic" you mean "impact"?
No. I mean that the enchantress posesses great psychic powers and is able to create bolts of mind energy that she hurls at her enemies.

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Post by Emmanovi »

So are you proposing a change in attack type or not?
If white was black and black was white, what would happen to zebra crossings?

Assasin
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Post by Assasin »

if it was kinetic it would be similar to lightning, and lightning is fire magic, but I would rather they were cold, just because it fits their personality. And besides, I'm giving the wizard fire magic, I don't see a need to change the name for the enchantress.
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Oreb
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Post by Oreb »

which attack type is better, my one or assasins for the wizard fighter
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avv
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Post by avv »

The Raven wrote:which attack type is better, my one or assasins for the wizard fighter
Well both of you are suggesting that the warrior level wizard should have a flaming sword which can be used to either striking or conjuring magical bolts. What is the difference between your's and Assasin's warrior wizard?
The damage? I don't care how much damage it does as long it is balanced.

So guys tell me what do you think about the Gillkin I suggested at previous page. Could the swimmer unit be something like that?

Oreb
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Post by Oreb »

hmm... i don't think so it is really up to Assasin (and Belwar in Secret) to decide on that, but IMHO i don't think so
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Post by Oreb »

The difference between mine and his is the damge, his does more but less attacks mine does more attacks but less power

Also i think tzard fighter should have a weaker ranged
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Assasin
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Post by Assasin »

Belwar is outa the picture pretty much, I just tell him whats goin on and he just nods his head and says "they are awesome" 8)

Personally, I don't like the idea of the Gilikin, the Sea Orc was made as a joke i believe. It's an interesting idea, but it just doesn't fight the Dark Elves. Now if they had an elite unit that could traverse over any ground easily, that sounds like a better idea to me. That is why I think the Lizard Rider should be able to move quickly over any terrain. 1 on caves, 1 on hills and mountains, 1 on plains, 1 on shallow water, 2 in deep water, 2 on sand, and low defense bonuses. If we put that together, give him a lvl. 3, he should be a very handy (though expensive) scout unit that would also solve the terrain issue.
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Post by Oreb »

perfect

Maybe it could have bacterious saliva for the lv 3 and have a poison bite

maybe 6-2 weak cause it poisons and lv 3 only
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ILikeProgramming
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Post by ILikeProgramming »

And then come spammy posts.
Hey, I'm glad people are actually discussing the Dark Elves.

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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Assasin wrote:Now for the units

DE Fighter:

5-5 blade
hp=30
movement_type=defoot
movement=5
exp=35
cost=15
advanceto=DE Warrior, DE Captain

DE Warrior:

6-6 blade
hp=42
movement_type=defoot
movement=5
exp=90
cost=30
advanceto=DE Corsair

DE Corsair:

7-7 blade
hp=61
movement_type=defoot
movement=5
exp=500
cost=63
advanceto=null

DE Captain:

7-4 blade
8-3 pierce
hp=38
movement_type=defoot
movement=5
exp=100
cost=37
advanceto=DE Marshal

DE Marshal:

11-4 blade
10-4 pierce
8-2 pierce(long)
hp=60
movement_type=defoot
movement=5
exp=500
cost=75
advanceto=null

DE Wizard:

8-3 cold, magical(long)
hp=30
movement_type=desmall
movement=5
exp=50
cost=18
advanceto=DE Sorcerer

DE Sorcerer:

11-3 cold, magical(long)
hitpoints=45
movement_type=desmall
movement=5
experience=90
level=2
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=Dark Elf Warlock
cost=39

DE Warlock:

14-3 cold, magical(long)
6-4, cold, drain(short)
hitpoints=71
movement_type=desmall
movement=5
experience=500
level=3
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=null
cost=80

DE Enchantress:

6-2 impact(short)
6-3 cold, magical(long)
hitpoints=30
movement_type=desmall
movement=5
experience=55
level=1
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=Dark Elf Sorceress
cost=20

DE Sorceress:

7-4 impact(short)
7-4 cold, magical(long)
hitpoints=50
movement_type=desmall
movement=5
experience=120
level=2
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=Dark Elf Cleric
cost=42
abilities=heal

DE Cleric:

9-4 impact(short)
10-4 cold, magical
hitpoints=65
movement_type=desmall
movement=5
experience=500
level=3
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=null
cost=60
abilities=cure

DE Lizard-Rider:

9-2 pierce, charge
4-3 blade
hitpoints=32
movement_type=lizard
movement=8
experience=30
level=1
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=Dark Elf Lizard-Master
cost=22

DE Lizard-Master:

12-2 pierce, charge
7-3 blade
hitpoints=48
movement_type=lizard
movement=8
experience=500
level=2
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=null
cost=35

DE Hunter:

5-2 blade(short
4-3 pierce, poison(long)
hitpoints=25
movement_type=deelusive
movement=6
ability=skirmisher
experience=35
level=1
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=Dark Elf Shadow
cost=18

DE Shadow:

10-2 blade(short)
5-4 pierce, poison(long)
hitpoints=38
movement_type=deelusive
movement=6
ability=skirmisher
experience=70
level=2
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=Dark Elf Stalker
cost=33

DE Stalker:

15-2 blade(short)
5-6 pierce, poison(long)
hitpoints=50
movement_type=deelusive
movement=6
ability=skirmisher
experience=500
level=3
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=null
cost=55
Sorry for the delay; I'd forgotten that I'd asked you guys for the stats.

While I think that this is a good and fun project, I think there are two major flaws with the nature of the balancing. The first is the more obvious one: Some of the units, are comparitively speaking, overpowered in how they'd interact with the other factions. The fighter is pretty crazy. That much damage for so few gold is unheard of, and the HP is not so low that it would really offset this much. Consider also that there is a 2 in 5 chance of this unit getting even more crazy than it already is- The strong trait would be occurring almost half the time and would bump that up to 30 damage for only 15 gold.

The wizard is another one with a big overpowering problem, probably actually much bigger than the fighter. Consider that it's doing the kind of ranged damage that a Drake Burner can do, but unlike the Burner, it will hit much more often and will inflict massive damage regardless of terrain. 8-3 is more magic damage than a level one unit has ever had, and its frequency of hitting would make it the most damaging level one ranged unit in the game. If you really want to keep that much damage, the cost should be, in my opinion, at least 22. The fact that it has no melee doesn't mean much of anything, outside of the fact that an ulf could wipe it out without being damaged. This faction as it is though would make ulfs practically unusable, so that issue is nearly irrelevant to the balancing of the wizard. Consider the human mage, whose melee is pretty insignificant, costs 20, has low HP, and does only 7-3. You can say that it seems balanced (monetarily) compared to the Dark Adept, but the Adept has a very specific role in a very different faction (this will connect to my second point.)

The lizard Rider is just like a better Horseman. The standard melee option is actually a very strong and useful option, and levels out one of the weaknesses of the Horseman. Lizard-movement-type is also insanely powerful for this type of unit...zero penalty over hills (and the ability to move on mountains) is a really big deal for a "finishing" unit such as this. I'd recommend dropping its Charge attack to 8-2, at least. The lower HP is again, in my opinion, not signficant enough to counter this imbalance.

My second point is more of a conceptual issue: Suppose you had a faction that could recruit Horsemen, Assassins, Dark Adepts and some sort of generic, super-damaging Fighter. Do you see what the problem would be? Too many bases are being covered by allowing the Dark Elves such a span of powerful options; it seems that they would have a fairly easy and obvious counter for anything that could be sent their way. Can you imagine what Drake vs. Undead would be like if the Undead, in addition to the power of the Adept, also had the massive pierce damage and range of the Loyalist Horseman? Or what Undead vs. Loyalist would be like if the Undead had the supplement of ranged poison?

In order to balance this faction against the other factions, you'll have to think outside of the usual mode of unit-to-unit comparrison, and deeply explore the roles that each Dark Elf unit will or will not play against each other faction (specifically, which units those factions would have to use against them, and how balanced that exchange would be). This is not to say that you haven't done this at all, but I do think that you should step it up a bit with a more thorough consideration of these sorts of factional interactions.

Again though, I really do like the project a lot. I just don't want you to have to face off against a horde of whiners when the Dark Elves hit the Big Time. :D

Best of luck. If you'd like any help or advice, just let me know.
Last edited by Doc Paterson on November 25th, 2005, 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Oreb
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Post by Oreb »

That is exactly what i would never have thought of :P
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Assasin
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Post by Assasin »

Thanks a lot Pat, I knew they were a bit overpowered, but I wasn't quite sure on what to do about it. I'll take your advice and make the changes.
I speak what's on my mind.

Which is why nothing I say makes sense.

lu_zero
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Post by lu_zero »

Doc Paterson wrote:
While I think that this is a good and fun project, I think there are two major flaws with the nature of the balancing. The first is the more obvious one: Some of the units, are comparitively speaking, overpowered in how they'd interact with the other factions. The fighter is pretty crazy. That much damage for so few gold is unheard of, and the HP is not so low that it would really offset this much. Consider also that there is a 2 in 5 chance of this unit getting even more crazy than it already is- The strong trait would be occurring almost half the time and would bump that up to 30 damage for only 15 gold.
the warriors will die on any terrain but cave... Not to mention that happens against a ranged unit.
If you really want to keep that much damage, the cost should be, in my opinion, at least 22. The fact that it has no melee doesn't mean much of anything, outside of the fact that an ulf could wipe it out without being damaged. This faction as it is though would make ulfs practically unusable, so that issue is nearly irrelevant to the balancing of the wizard. Consider the human mage, whose melee is pretty insignificant, costs 20, has low HP, and does only 7-3. You can say that it seems balanced (monetarily) compared to the Dark Adept, but the Adept has a very specific role in a very different faction (this will connect to my second point.)
The adept advances to a melee and ranged unit, the mage not. That is an interesting malus since lots of lv1 units could take it down (nearly) w/out much hassle.
The lizard Rider is just like a better Horseman. The standard melee option is actually a very strong and useful option, and levels out one of the weaknesses of the Horseman. Lizard-movement-type is also insanely powerful for this type of unit...zero penalty over hills (and the ability to move on mountains) is a really big deal for a "finishing" unit such as this. I'd recommend dropping its Charge attack to 8-2, at least. The lower HP is again, in my opinion, not signficant enough to counter this imbalance.
low hp and charge means win or die in much situations.
My second point is more of a conceptual issue: Suppose you had a faction that could recruit Horsemen, Assassins, Dark Adepts and some sort of generic, super-damaging Fighter. Do you see what the problem would be? Too many bases are being covered by allowing the Dark Elves such a span of powerful options; it seems that they would have a fairly easy and obvious counter for anything that could be sent their way. Can you imagine what Drake vs. Undead would be like if the Undead, in addition to the power of the Adept, also had the massive pierce damage and range of the Loyalist Horseman? Or what Undead vs. Loyalist would be like if the Undead had the supplement of ranged poison?
You forgot the fact that they sucks on anything but cave...
The main problem with DE is that they could be quite powerful but they will die soon if they come outside the cave...
If the drakes have low defense and high damage and somewhat high hp to cope, the DE have low def outside cave and low hp. That said would be great if they could get a 30% or 40% excursion between night and day.

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