More naval units

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » May 15th, 2005, 10:15 pm

MadMax wrote:How about the undead having a ghost ship?

no good. Ships are inconvenient enough as it is without them also having weird special states.

Tux2B · Post by **Tux2B** » May 17th, 2005, 10:23 am

What about how much a ship would cost? I think the best is making them expensive: in the realistic world, they are made with lots of wood, iron... At least as expensive as a gryphon rider (that's to say: 25 gold). For a "weak" boat. So it would not be used the same as mermen or nagas, that would be the "cheap" naval units.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » May 17th, 2005, 10:31 am

Tux2B wrote: What about how much a ship would cost? I think the best is making them expensive: in the realistic world, they are made with lots of wood, iron... At least as expensive as a gryphon rider (that's to say: 25 gold). For a "weak" boat. So it would not be used the same as mermen or nagas, that would be the "cheap" naval units.

Yeah, and any wimpy Merman or Naga could rip open the hull of even the strongest ship. It's like building wooden ships in an age in which the submarine has already been invented.

kangounator · Post by **kangounator** » May 17th, 2005, 4:38 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Tux2B wrote: What about how much a ship would cost? I think the best is making them expensive: in the realistic world, they are made with lots of wood, iron... At least as expensive as a gryphon rider (that's to say: 25 gold). For a "weak" boat. So it would not be used the same as mermen or nagas, that would be the "cheap" naval units.
Yeah, and any wimpy Merman or Naga could rip open the hull of even the strongest ship. It's like building wooden ships in an age in which the submarine has already been invented.

Ships are a good idea:

- There's a lot of ground unit with lots capacity but there's 3 sea "base units" and there are not very different with more naval unit sea will take a bigger place in the game

- A lvl3 ship will be better than a lvl3 merman. Think of one merman who attack a big boat with cannons or who attack lots of boats. Does the merman win ?

- Some races hasn't merman or naga. They will have naval units not to attack (too expensive) but to block naval attack or to transport troops. It's add new possibility to the game

Disto · Post by **Disto** » May 17th, 2005, 4:57 pm

First thing, ships should cost as much as 5-6* as much as merman, maybe 80-100 each or just not recruitable at all and the scenario designer would have to give them too you.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » May 17th, 2005, 7:07 pm

kangounator wrote:- A lvl3 ship will be better than a lvl3 merman. Think of one merman who attack a big boat with cannons or who attack lots of boats. Does the merman win ?

Hmm... let's say the Merman is fighting against 20 ships with tons of cannons.

The merman sneaks up under the first ship and puts a hole in its hull. Then it sneaks up under the second ship and puts a hole in its hull. Then someone in the first ship notices that it's taking on water. Then the merman sticks a hole in the third ship. Then the people in the first ship realize what's going on, and tell all the other ships. Then the merman sticks a hole in the fourth ship. Then everyone on the ships runs to the down-facing cannons and starts loading. Then the merman sticks a hole in the fifth ship. Then the cannons are loaded, and they fire randomly down into the water. The merman, who was under the fifth ship, sees the splashes and dives deeper. While they load, it comes an sticks a hole in the sixth ship. Then the cannons fire again, but the merman wasn't stupid enough to be near the surface, so he isn't harmed. Then the merman sticks a hole in the seventh ship. Then about fifteen men from the ships grab spears and dive into the water to chase the merman. The merman decides that even with the huge water advantage, he can't fight fifteen men, so he goes back to call up four other mermen, who fit easily into the cost of even one of the ships, and slaughter the men, and then sink the rest of the ships.

Tux2B · Post by **Tux2B** » May 17th, 2005, 7:24 pm

Elvish pillager wrote:

kangounator wrote:
- A lvl3 ship will be better than a lvl3 merman. Think of one merman who attack a big boat with cannons or who attack lots of boats. Does the merman win ?

Hmm... let's say the Merman is fighting against 20 ships with tons of cannons.

The merman sneaks up under the first ship and puts a hole in its hull. Then it sneaks up under the second ship and puts a hole in its hull. Then someone in the first ship notices that it's taking on water. Then the merman sticks a hole in the third ship. Then the people in the first ship realize what's going on, and tell all the other ships. Then the merman sticks a hole in the fourth ship. Then everyone on the ships runs to the down-facing cannons and starts loading. Then the merman sticks a hole in the fifth ship. Then the cannons are loaded, and they fire randomly down into the water. The merman, who was under the fifth ship, sees the splashes and dives deeper. While they load, it comes an sticks a hole in the sixth ship. Then the cannons fire again, but the merman wasn't stupid enough to be near the surface, so he isn't harmed. Then the merman sticks a hole in the seventh ship. Then about fifteen men from the ships grab spears and dive into the water to chase the merman. The merman decides that even with the huge water advantage, he can't fight fifteen men, so he goes back to call up four other mermen, who fit easily into the cost of even one of the ships, and slaughter the men, and then sink the rest of the ships.

OK, mermans are not silly, nor bad and unuseful units, but:

I still wonder with WICH weapon they would make holes in a boat: killing a unit that can't swim well is more difficult than making a boat sink! You need bigger weapons

And neither mermans nor nagas can transport other units.

Mermans or nagas would definitly be different than boats, at least strategically.

Assasin · Post by **Assasin** » May 17th, 2005, 10:46 pm

The boats only purpose should be to transport, not attack. Sure, they can have a giant crossbow that does 1-22 dmg, but that should be it. KISS

Tux2B · Post by **Tux2B** » May 18th, 2005, 2:15 pm

Assasin wrote:The boats only purpose should be to transport, not attack. Sure, they can have a giant crossbow that does 1-22 dmg, but that should be it. KISS

Boats should be used at least to attack other boats in campaigns that would be more naval than terrestrial (do you say it like that?), and they should be able to defend themselves at least a little. Something like 70% defense (which means that only 30% would "hurt" the ship), because otherwise, it wouldn't be useful to build some.

About the giant crossbow: 1-22 isn't SO bad. I mean, it mean, with 1-22, at least you are sure to hurt the ennemy unit.
And if boats would only be used as transport, all the units I proposed would have to be changed

. Somethin like:

---------
TRANSPORT SHIP
cost: 25
HP: 60
XP: -
attack: ranged: 2-11 (or something like that).

-------------

But I still think that would'nt be enough to improve naval battles in Wesnoth. If you have any opinion about it, post a comment.

js138 · Post by **js138** » May 18th, 2005, 3:13 pm

Well if I was defending a ship vs mermen, I wouldn't use cannon. Fishing nets and plenty of the usual pointy bits of metal would be my recourse.

If you had the technology, depth charges - concussive shockwaves effects travel well in water, which is why fishing with dynamite "works".

Besides you need a big hole to sink most ships since most wooden ships leak some anyway. Making a hole in a hull with a trident doesn't seem that easy either, if it's a decent sized ship.

Just some musings. I'm not conviced we need this in the core of wesnoth, but it might be useful for campaigns writers to consider.

Tux2B · Post by **Tux2B** » May 19th, 2005, 10:42 am

Having read your comments, here are some other units I propose:

Level 0: row boat
water: 4 moves
shallow water: 3
ranged attack:4-3
HP:35 XP:40
cost:20

Level 1: sail ship or small galley*
water: 6 / 5
shallow water: 4 / 5
ranged attack: 5-4 / 2-8
HP: 50 XP:60 / HP: 50 XP:55
cost: 35 / cost:30

Level 2: Warship / galley
water: 6 / 6
shallow water:4 / 5
ranged attack: 6-4 / 3-8
melee: 3-2 (with nets?) / 6-2
HP:60 XP:65 / HP:60

Level 3: Admiral's ship -
water: 6
shallow water: 4
ranged attack: 1-12 (crossbow)
melee: 5-4
HP:75

--------------For Northeners?--------------

Drakkar (lvl1)
transport: 5units
moves: water: 8 (6 is loaded)
shallow water: 6 (4 if loaded)
ranged attack: 6-3
HP:40
cost:35

----------------transport-------------

transport: 4units
moves: water: 6(4 if loaded)
shallow water: 4(2 if loaded)
ranged attack: 3-5
HP: 60
cost:30

*: the name needs to be changed

Question:

What is a ship sinks? Shall the units that are on board die immediatly, loose 50% HP, or just swim without being hurted.

Post by **Jetrel** » May 20th, 2005, 7:22 am

All of this talk, in the words of Jack Nicholson, "means precisely dick."

You want anything to happen? Start pushing pixels. MAKE SOME GRAPHICS. Even if they suck, someone could use them - but your stats are worthless. If we wanted to add boats to the game, we would likely code in some major changes to gameplay that would render all of your speculation on appropriate stats to be completely useless.

You cannot make a new unit or game element without some graphical representation of it - this is not Nethack. Arguing about stats without the graphics is putting the cart before the horse.

Tux2B · Post by **Tux2B** » May 20th, 2005, 9:30 am

First, we must be sure of what units we want to make, then it will be possible to make graphics.

Anyway, if you are interested, you can, instead of criticising the whole thread, propose a drawing: you are an art developer, after all.

kangounator · Post by **kangounator** » May 20th, 2005, 4:39 pm

Jetryl wrote: You want anything to happen? Start pushing pixels. MAKE SOME GRAPHICS. Even if they suck, someone could use them - but your stats are worthless. If we wanted to add boats to the game, we would likely code in some major changes to gameplay that would render all of your speculation on appropriate stats to be completely useless.

You cannot make a new unit or game element without some graphical representation of it - this is not Nethack. Arguing about stats without the graphics is putting the cart before the horse.

statistics are the most important, you must have stats before "starting pushing pixels"

if the unit has lots of HP you draw it with a shield, if it's good at melee attack you draw a sword....

Disto · Post by **Disto** » May 20th, 2005, 4:50 pm

kangounator wrote:
Jetryl wrote: You want anything to happen? Start pushing pixels. MAKE SOME GRAPHICS. Even if they suck, someone could use them - but your stats are worthless. If we wanted to add boats to the game, we would likely code in some major changes to gameplay that would render all of your speculation on appropriate stats to be completely useless.

You cannot make a new unit or game element without some graphical representation of it - this is not Nethack. Arguing about stats without the graphics is putting the cart before the horse.

statistics are the most important, you must have stats before "starting pushing pixels" if the unit has lots of HP you draw it with a shield, if it's good at melee attack you draw a sword....

No! All you new people are wrong, the graphics are the most important, as they take the longest and they give the unit charecter, you make the stats afterwards, if you just make stats then noone can use them, but if you make the graphics and have to leave it then they are still of use, a berserker might have a lot of hp but you won't draw it with a shield, same with a dragon. With the freedom of being able to make the graphics, if it looks rubbish then you can just change it, that is how the pillager in the marauders got his torch. This is utter [censored] you are pumping out. Look at Shadow's Images, he doesn't do the stats, just makes the graphics and leaves it up to the campaign designer.