Alternative Upgrade for Necromancer

Simons Mith · Post by **Simons Mith** » March 14th, 2005, 6:25 pm

Yes, because how does he find time to perform the full 'transform to Lich' ritual in mid-scenario, and indeed in the middle of a fight? It can't be the easiest of rituals to perform, and it's one you'd want to get right . . .

Post by **turin** » March 14th, 2005, 6:28 pm

I would say that, in wesnoth, there are two types of undead, the maintainers and the destroyers.

The first type, the maintainer, is like that of the Wesfolk. They want to be undead because it prolongs their life, and they don't see it as a form of death at all. The have fundamentally 'good' motives, but their motives have been perverted. They don't, however, necessarily want to become undead (a lich) as long as they can not do so, and still remain alive. These are the ones that would go to the Descendant Necromancer.

The second type, the destroyer, is what Mal-Ravanal, and probably Gwiti Ha'atel, both are. Their lives were basically destroyed when they was discovered to be practicing the dark art, so, when they escaped, they did not want power just to have power, but to get revenge on those that 'wronged' them. They would have no qualms about turning into a lich, if it would help them get revenge. These are the ones that would turn into a lich.

OK, then, so why would any enemies in EI be Descendant Necromancers, not Lichs? The arch-lich (Mal-Ravanal) does not give everyone the honor of becoming a lich. Some of them he does not allow to go become a lich, because he does not see them as worthy, but instead makes them remain human. (BTW, all of his servants, even the human ones, are complete slaves to his will. They don't dare to cross him, because he is so much more powerful than they are. Kind of like Sauron...)

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » March 14th, 2005, 6:58 pm

Yeah turin, that's why I quoted the outlaw's campaign. The shadow mages are people who practice the art of undead magic without turning themselves into liches, because they find the balance between light and darkness.

It would be much helpfull if liches could remain human in my opinion, but just because it would be easier to play, not worrying about light magic, it doesn't mean it would make the game better. It's natural that they turn themselves into undeads because the use of death magic affects themselves, killing their bodies but keeping their soul alive. This makes the body rotten but they still live.

There is this secret organization I saw on an RPG game, but it was based on a real organization. The order of luvithy, created 700 b.C., that tried to make the soul immortal, but the body still got old.

And it's like you said, they want to become liches, not everyone has the honor to become a lich. But I don't think it's a ritual, it may be, but just like an arch mage can get older, grow 50 centimeters of beard in one battle, the necromancer can turn into a lich.

scott · Post by **scott** » March 14th, 2005, 7:11 pm

I contend that black magic != undead magic, although black magic could be a superset of undead magic.

White mages: practice holy magic (a subset of light magic)
Red/silver mages: practice light magic
Shadow mages: practices both light and black magic
Dark adepts: practice black magic
Necromancers: practice black magic, including some undead magic
Necro-L3 humans: pratice black magic and stop practicing undead magic
Liches: practice undead magic

Up until now they have used fire and holy on the one side of the aisle and cold on the other side. Shadow magic as a damage along what Jetryl outlined would correspond nicely with what is being called undead magic.

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » March 14th, 2005, 7:55 pm

Wasn't that graphic a fire emblem druid?

Post by **turin** » March 14th, 2005, 9:22 pm

OK, I'm working on a .cfg file for this unit, in preparation for it to go in-game. Comments?

(oh, the description is that of the necromancer because I haven't thought up a better one yet. Suggestions are welcome).

Code: Select all

[unit]
id=Descendant Necromancer
name= _ "Descendant Necromancer"
race=human
image=undead-descnecromancer.png
image_defensive=undead-descnecromancer-defend.png
hitpoints=80
movement_type=smallfoot
movement=5
experience=80
level=3
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=
cost=38
usage=mixed fighter
unit_description= _ "Necromancer are Mages that have decided to follow the paths of the dark arts. By tapping into the power of the undead, Necromancers can cast spells that drain the lifeforce from their foes and add it to their own."
get_hit_sound=groan.wav
	[attack]
	name=staff
	type=impact
	range=short
	damage=4
	number=3
		[frame]
		begin=-100
		end=100
		image=undead-descnecromancer-staff1.png
		[/frame]
		[frame]
		begin=-100
		end=100
		image=undead-descnecromancer-staff2.png
		[/frame]
		[sound]
		time=-100
		sound=staff.wav
		[/sound]
	[/attack]
	[attack]
	name=chill wave
	type=cold
	special=magical
	range=long
	damage=15
	number=2
	icon=attacks/dark-missile.png
		[frame]
		begin=-400
		end=-300
		image=undead-descnecromancer-ranged1.png
		[/frame]
		[frame]
		begin=-300
		end=-200
		image=undead-descnecromancer-ranged2.png
		[/frame]

		[missile_frame]
		begin=-200
		end=0
		image=projectiles/darkmissile-n.png
		image_diagonal=projectiles/darkmissile-ne.png
		[/missile_frame]
		[sound]
		time=-200
		sound=magicmissile.wav
		[/sound]
	[/attack]
[/unit]

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » March 14th, 2005, 9:30 pm

Ths staff should be 5-3.

Simons Mith · Post by **Simons Mith** » March 14th, 2005, 10:05 pm

I gladly leave others to quibble with the game stats, but the name leaves something to be desired. Look up descendant in thesaurus.reference.com; it's not what you want at all.

Degenerate Necromanacer is probably closer to what you intended

Ascendant Necromancer - one who is about to ascend might do the trick

Imminent?? Supreme?

I'll have to have a think about it; this is a heavy load for one word to carry.

Edit:

How about plain old Dark Mage? As the Arch-Mage's or Great Mage's opposite number

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » March 14th, 2005, 10:11 pm

Simons Mith wrote:I gladly leave others to quibble with the game stats, but the name leaves something to be desired. Look up descendant in thesaurus.reference.com; it's not what you want at all.

In the context, it is quite obvious that the less common meaning is the one used. I don't see any problem with this.

Simons Mith · Post by **Simons Mith** » March 14th, 2005, 10:21 pm

No, if it is to be kept it should be descendENT. AscendANT does retain connotations of the word ascendING, but descendANT according to the sources I've checked carries no such connotations of descendING. That why even though I know what turin's getting at, I'm querying the word used. It isn't right.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » March 14th, 2005, 10:34 pm

Well, I don't mind if an A is replaced with an E. It's still pretty much the same word, and some people will think it's better.

Post by **turin** » March 15th, 2005, 1:17 am

Simons Mith wrote:No, if it is to be kept it should be descendENT. AscendANT does retain connotations of the word ascendING, but descendANT according to the sources I've checked carries no such connotations of descendING. That why even though I know what turin's getting at, I'm querying the word used. It isn't right.

I didn't make up the name, IIRC EP did...

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » March 15th, 2005, 10:12 am

turin wrote:IIRC EP did...

Yup.

scott · Post by **scott** » March 15th, 2005, 1:38 pm

Actually "Ascendant Necromancer" isn't all that bad. Instead of transforming, he just went higher into necromancy -- there's nothing degenerate about 80 HP! Black mage works for me too.

Necromancer are Mages that have decided to follow the paths of the dark arts. By tapping into the power of the undead, Necromancers can cast spells that drain the lifeforce from their foes and add it to their own.

proposed:

Black Mages [Descendent Necromancers] did not fully embrace the power of the undead by becoming undead themselves. Instead, their advanced studies of the dark arts have made them stronger, but not nearly as powerful as they would have been as Liches. Because they retain their humanity, they do not fear holy magic.

- explains why the alternate path exists
- the old one makes me think they should have the drain ability

stillnotelf · Post by **stillnotelf** » March 15th, 2005, 5:50 pm

I vote for Dark Mage. He's turned down a chance to be a Lich, so he's not (for the moment) heavily into death magic, just black magic. He started as a Dark Adept, so the name is consistent with L1 if not L2. Descendant/ascendant is a bit confusing on the surface, and I suspect the deeper connotations will have trouble in translation.

As an aside, has anyone considered an anti-illuminate ability for this guy? It seems far too powerful, especially as the unit only exists to foil Holy anyway, but I thought I'd mention it.