Alternative Upgrade for Necromancer

Post by **turin** » March 12th, 2005, 2:44 pm

Without this unit, the ending of Eastern Invasion can never be challenging, because you will have 50 thousand holy units at your disposal. That is reason enough to put it in. I wholeheartedly support this unit's inclusion, if not for use in multiplayer then for use in EI.

As for the specific stats of the unit, I think that what EP has proposed is good, but 80 HP seems high, and I have a thing against numbers divisible by ten.... maybe 76? And the damage seems very low for a third level unit.

But it might just be a design choice to have the unit different from most other archers, by having lots of HP but little attack.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » March 12th, 2005, 3:39 pm

turin wrote:But it might just be a design choice to have the unit different from most other archers, by having lots of HP but little attack.

Yeah, just like the Necromancer. If you want to complain, that's what you should be complaining about.

romnajin · Post by **romnajin** » March 12th, 2005, 3:48 pm

How about something like this?

romnajin · Post by **romnajin** » March 12th, 2005, 3:49 pm

How about something like this?

romnajin · Post by **romnajin** » March 12th, 2005, 3:50 pm

A little more powerful looking then the necromancer, and a little darker

Post by **turin** » March 12th, 2005, 3:50 pm

romnajin wrote:How about something like this?

Does this post have any point at all?

We already have graphics... or, at least had. they were located in this thread: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 6&start=75

romnajin · Post by **romnajin** » March 12th, 2005, 3:51 pm

Not really, I just thought that that was cool, and I didn't think that you should use that, just more of a concept.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » March 12th, 2005, 4:02 pm

turin wrote:
romnajin wrote:How about something like this?
Does this post have any point at all?

We already have graphics... or, at least had. they were located in this thread: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 6&start=75

A existing copy is
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... ecromancer
here

Post by **turin** » March 12th, 2005, 11:10 pm

Shadow wrote:
turin wrote: Does this post have any point at all?

We already have graphics... or, at least had. they were located in this thread: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 6&start=75
A existing copy is
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... ecromancer
here

Woot.

Does jetryl approve of those images to go in-game? If so, we're good to go. If not, can someone with some spare time work on improving them?

Post by **Jetrel** » March 13th, 2005, 8:12 pm

turin wrote:Does jetryl approve of those images to go in-game? If so, we're good to go. If not, can someone with some spare time work on improving them?

Yes. I approve.

Don't add in fancy animations, though - just add in a basic set of four frames (standing, melee, ranged, defense). I plan on doing to the undead magicians somewhat of what I did to the human magicians - reworking their magic animations. Needless to say, this will plow over anything included now, and we may as well not do so in the interests of keeping CVS clean. If we only add one frame for each animation, then I won't be deleting any frames, just replacing them.

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » March 14th, 2005, 1:41 am

Helicroml, shadow mage from Liberty wrote: Necromancers become slaves to their Lich masters and eventually lose their humanity. We have found that practicing the dark arts is not as hazardous as it may seem. The balance of light and dark is a mystical secret we hope to discover. As such, we live between both worlds, fitting into neither one.

A necromancer doesn't give a damn about turning into an undead.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » March 14th, 2005, 10:22 am

Monkey wrote:
Helicroml, shadow mage from Liberty wrote: Necromancers become slaves to their Lich masters and eventually lose their humanity. We have found that practicing the dark arts is not as hazardous as it may seem. The balance of light and dark is a mystical secret we hope to discover. As such, we live between both worlds, fitting into neither one.
A necromancer doesn't give a damn about turning into an undead.

No, a normal necromancer doesn't. A necrophobic necromancer, oxymoronic as is may seem, would.

I, for one, would like to be able to raise the dead, but I sure wouldn't want to turn into a Lich.

Darkmoon · Post by **Darkmoon** » March 14th, 2005, 1:09 pm

I believe that Necromancer,... his search for power and all,... all that is with purpose of one day becoming a lich. That is NecromancerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s way to become immortal. And while being a Lich you will have eternity to gather knowledge and powerÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.

I think it is goal in NecromancerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s life to become a lichÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ besides once you are a lich, you can still control/rise undead only now you are immortal,Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ stronger,Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ more powerful.

The only way for necromancer not to become a lichÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ is simply a case of necromancer not having the guts to go through with it. Considering that some weaker version,Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ of alternate advancement is acceptable.

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » March 14th, 2005, 4:28 pm

He is not afraid of turning himself into an undead because he is not afraid of undead. Only mortals would fear that, but the lich is already in another level. He doesn't see the undead as something "bad". The only ones that see it are players afraid of holy magic.

That brings my idea of dark magic again. All living things have -20% defense agains shadow magic, so liches would like to turn into undeads so they become imune against it. of course they would lose 20% defense to holy and become -100% weak to it.

Post by **Jetrel** » March 14th, 2005, 6:19 pm

Darkmoon wrote:I believe that Necromancer,... his search for power and all,... all that is with purpose of one day becoming a lich. That is NecromancerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s way to become immortal. And while being a Lich you will have eternity to gather knowledge and powerÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.

I think it is goal in NecromancerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s life to become a lichÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ besides once you are a lich, you can still control/rise undead only now you are immortal,Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ stronger,Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ more powerful.

The only way for necromancer not to become a lichÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ is simply a case of necromancer not having the guts to go through with it. Considering that some weaker version,Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ of alternate advancement is acceptable.

Yeah - the whole doggone point of the "Undead" thing is BEING IMMORTAL. Not Dying. The power bit only exists to serve this function, by keeping others from killing you.

The only reason that no famed powerful people in human history have gone down the "immortality" road is because they kinda ... can't. Freedom from death by old age has not been realized yet. There are numerous people who have tried, though, and tried very hard. The whole of taoist alchemy (and western alchemy, too) came from research into how to "not die" when you got old. They never figured that part out, but they did figure a bunch of other stuff out.

That said, here's why this doesn't invalidate the bit in-game:
1] Necromancers might wait till they get old to go under the spell. In the process, they might become nearly as powerful at wielding magic as the average lich.
2] They might not want to do so right away, because the process is ostensibly not perfect. Sure, you gain eternal life, but it's a "ruined and terrible form of life", and is anything but pleasing to be in.
3] Another reason for this would be the given gameplay reason. By still being a living creature, they can't be dispelled by white mages. If they are undead, though, they are being kept alive by dark magic, and a white mage can wave his hands and make that magic go away.

Liches are needed as a storyline unit to fight. However, I would almost rather the necromancers leveled by default into the proposed unit.