Oddities with the cost of Gryphon (and other mainline monster units)

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Spixi
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Joined: August 23rd, 2010, 7:22 pm

Oddities with the cost of Gryphon (and other mainline monster units)

Post by Spixi » May 19th, 2019, 6:38 pm

The Gryphon and the Gryphon Master started as completely different units.

In 1.0, the Gryphon had 44 HP, costed 40 gold, had 9 MP and a 10-3 melee attack
The Gryphon Master, however, had 46 HP, costed 50 gold, had 10 MP and a 14-2 melee attack

The price difference made sense, because the Master had more movement, slightly more HP and could kill units with 14 HP (resistances not applied) left without receiving a counter-hit.

However, the stats are now very different:
In 1.14, the Gryphon kept all its stats, but the Gryphon Master got a lot of buffs over the time. Its costs were decreased from 50 to 37, its HP were increased from 46 to 51 and the melee attack was increased from 14-2 to 15-2. The Gryphon Master is now much stronger than the Gryphon.

Other units have similar issues. The Wolf and the Wolf Rider are are identical, but the Wolf evolves into a single (instead of two different) unit, if ENABLE_WOLF_ADVANCEMENT is set, or otherwise gets default AMLA at 50 XP, which is only better, if you cannot afford the upkeep for a level 2 unit. The Great Wolf is absolutely inferior compared to the Goblin Knight, because it has less HP and less attack, but its cost is only 2 gold less (30 instead of 32).

I know, this may slightly affect some mainline and user-made campaigns (for example, scenario 10 in Eastern Invasion at Easy difficulty), but I would suggest the following changes:

Decrease the costs of the
  • Gryphon from 40 to 31
  • Wolf from 17 to 16
  • Great Wolf from 30 to 28
What do you think?

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pauxlo
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Re: Oddities with the cost of Gryphon (and other mainline monster units)

Post by pauxlo » June 25th, 2019, 10:12 pm

Units are not balanced against other units, but factions against factions.
These monster units are not in a faction (UMC factions can define the cost separately), so their cost is only relevant for campaign balance, and should be considered with that in mind.

Spixi
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Re: Oddities with the cost of Gryphon (and other mainline monster units)

Post by Spixi » June 26th, 2019, 12:08 am

pauxlo wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 10:12 pm
Units are not balanced against other units, but factions against factions.
These monster units are not in a faction (UMC factions can define the cost separately), so their cost is only relevant for campaign balance, and should be considered with that in mind.
I already know that. But, take scenario 11a from Northern Rebirth, for instance. You can recruit Gryphons there, but they are a way too expensive. You have access to Footpads and if Krash is still alive, you can recruit Drake Gliders. Both units are much more cost-effective. It would be better to normalize the cost. Remember, that the Gryphon is a Level 2 unit and needs more upkeep than a level 1 unit like the Footpad and has no ranged attack and only a blade attack, which makes it an easy target for Orcish Crossbowmen and Trolls, respectively. Footpads and Gliders have impact attacks against Trolls, for example.

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Oddities with the cost of Gryphon (and other mainline monster units)

Post by Pentarctagon » June 26th, 2019, 12:36 am

Just to confirm, this is a change you're proposing for mainline Wesnoth, correct?
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
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EarthCake
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Re: Oddities with the cost of Gryphon (and other mainline monster units)

Post by EarthCake » June 26th, 2019, 12:01 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 12:36 am
Just to confirm, this is a change you're proposing for mainline Wesnoth, correct?
I believe he is. But look at that this way: if you reduce the gryphons cost, that will unnecesarily increase the difficulty of other mainline scenarios, in example Gryphon Mountain in HttT. If you already have footpads and drake gliders, why would you recruit Gryphons? Also, gryphon is a very fast unit, which has a great amount of health points.

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