Imperial Era

[trewe]

nice era, but I just want to point out that this add-on still uses the old style of config file (causing to pop up an annoying message whenever wesnoth starts)
I have fixed it locally, but for the future it may be better setting a _main.cfg inside the add-on...

[UnwiseOwl]

This is already fixed in the current development version (I get irritated by that message too), which should be uploaded by the end of this month. Actually, we have a _main.cfg already, it's just that we still had the old format for storing faction details for some strange reason lost to the depths of time.
Thanks for the heads up, though

[AxalaraFlame]

Maradurer lv1 fighters
alternatives:
1. -$14, -torch 8-2
2. -$15, +atm 8-3 blade

[UnwiseOwl]

I don't think the first is an option, since the fire damage is the chief weapon that the marauders have against Lavinians and the Sidhe ancestors. The second is a substantial change, but potentially a possibility, although I would really appreciate it if with every suggested change you explain the exact rationale for that change. It seems to be that by decreasing the cost and increasing the damage that you've made this guy better than the Gallus, which is a significant change. I'll stick it in the test era anyway, but justification will be key to these changes.
Thanks, UO.

[AxalaraFlame]

Need time to order the words.
New semester starts. Patience required.

Besides, do u have a po. file for Imperial?

[UnwiseOwl]

No, there's not a .po file yet for two reasons:
1) I've never worked out how to get one produced
2) I'm reluctant to get translators to work on the era until it's a little more stable, to save them having to re-work things.

[UnwiseOwl]

New update for the era will be out for Wesnoth 1.11 in a few days.
There's a few graphics and sound fixes, but the primary purpose is changes in the experimental era. Included will be:
*Two orcei factions, one with chaotic minuti, one with chaotic magni
*An early version of a re-working of the cavernei working from what I can remember from the old forum
*Changed melee attacks for the Sidhe Windlasher, Tempest and Stormlord

If anyone has anything that they would like included they should send me the relevant files ASAP and I'll see what I can do.

[AxalaraFlame]

That is very understandable. I am expecting to translate this era and introduce it to my groups, since we've been using Imperial a lot on MP games for a while.

Besides, university life is unexpectedly hard recently. I have not been here for a long while, and I have not been workin on wesnoth for several weeks. I might be back in the spring holidays. Hope you guys could make great progress.



BR
Axa

[UnwiseOwl]

No worries, I remember what life at uni was like.
For me it was mostly cardgames and soccer, but I remember what it SHOULD have been like, too.

EDIT: Real Life interferes. The update to the IE is going to be delayed by a few weeks, just so that you're all aware.

[UnwiseOwl]

Couldn't sleep last night, and this is what happened:
 
There's a problem with Gali's Contract, the last Imperial Era campaign that Turin completed before he abandoned us in favour of being a grown-up. The problem is that once you discard a few superficial differences, GC is just an inferior version of Sceptre of Fire that happens to be set on Orbivm. The majority of the action is Cavernei vs Cavernei, and since the Cavernei are only slightly different to mainline dwarves, it can easily become monotonous, and no-one apart from the die-hard Imperial Era fan is likely to get any great enjoyment out of playing it.
 
I believe that the solution to this is to make GC primarily a Clockwork Dwarves campaign, rather than a Cavernei one, where the player starts out with a Cavernei army that slowly changes into a Clockwork one. This should work, Gali's contract was supposed to herald the beginning of the move for the Cavernei towards the clockwork age anyway, I'm just moving the timeline forward, and seeking to explain some of how and why the Imperial Cavernei might have changed themselves to become the Feudal Era Clockworks. I intend to add one scenario (as a prologue to the campaign) and make sweeping changes to the rest so that the clashes between Lokka and Gali are ones of different factions and fighting styles as well as different philosophy, keeping the bones and mechanics of GC and building on a new skin.
 
Since this will be a large change, much more substantial than my completed work on Epic of Vaniyera and ongoing conversion of Fall of Silvium has been, as they've been mostly balance and storyline nudges accompanied by sweeping dialogue changes, rather than true rewrites; I'd like to ask you guys, particuarly those of you with an interest in the IE and FE, if you think it might work and be worth the effort, or if I should just leave it alone. The characterisation will stay the same, so it won't violate Turin's wishes to play around as much as we like without destroying his characters, and the maps won't change much either, but the setting and feel of the campaign should be quite different. In my opinion to the better, but you may disagree, it's a free internet.
 
The current plot suggested plots are below. If you don't wish to have it spoiled for you, don't read

Spoiler:

Current Plot:
Gali is the head dwarf of Dvergken Tarn
Alfhelm approaches Gali about building Stormbreaker
Lokka visits and discovers plan (council not informed)
Jealous Lokka sends bandits to attack the Tarn (Scen 1)
Gali travels to Alfenheim to use their forge resources
Volur attempts to imprison Gali
Trondar sends recruits through the lodestone to defeat Volur (Scen 2)
Volur is forced to reveal location of forge notebooks
Lokka arrives and the mission turns into a dungeon crawl to the exit
Gali and Trondar must leave the mine once someone picks up the book (all living units survive)
Gali escapes, though units are affected by frostbite (Scen 3)
Enemies are wild beasts, Lokkas guards
The Issaelfr give unwitting directions to another forge, not knowing that there is a problem
Stormbreaker is forged
Lokka and Volur attempt to take Stormbreaker (Scen 4)
Lokka is killed and Volur escapes with Stormbreaker
Voljur is stopped by the Issaelfr Lady
Gali is forced to kill the Issaelfr Lady and Volur to regain Stormbreaker (Scen 5)
Gali crosses Iceswept bay by eagle to deliver Stormbreaker, opposed by wind elementals (Scen 6)
Alfhelm kills Vaniyera, the Dark Thunderblade
The power of the Thunderblades is broken
Faolan tries to avenge Vaniyera and the legacy of the Thunderblades (Scen 7)
Gali kills Leithan and returns home
Gali is summoned before the council to acccount for his crimes
 
New plot:
Gali is a runemaster that creates clockwork devices
He is sent with a small entourage to mine at the old Dvergken Tarn, by the dwarven council, to restart the colony
Arrives at the Tarn with a set recuit list, fighters, guards, thunderers, watchers and journeymenn.
The mine has been populated by Wild monsters which must be cleared out without losing too many dwarves (Scen 1)
Thunderers explode when they use their guns past a certain point (there's a warning)
(This is probably a forced event somehow, just because exploding dwarves is fun)
Disarmed thunderer is a level 0 unit (with only normal thunderer knife) (upgrades to soldier/triggerman)
Bring Gali and at least three fighters/guards to the forge workshop (they're turned into wanderers)
Alfhelm arrives and commissions Gali to build Stormbreaker
Lokka arrives to check on new settlement, Gali tells him of stormbreaker contract
Gali develops triggermenn and poison vials for soldiers
A band of marauders (not associated with Alfhlem) attacks (tipped off by Lokka) (Scen 2)
(Current recruit list: Wanderers, Trigermenn, Soldiers)
Gali passes through the Lodestone to Alfenheim to use the logbooks
Gali is imprisoned by Volur
Trondar launches a rescue attempt (Scen 3)
During the rescue attempt, Gali joins the escape with some contraptions
(contraptions added to recruit list)
Volur is defeated and forced to reveal the password to the location of the master forge library
Book is a droppable item, units can die and drop it. If an enemy regains it the mission is lost.
Lokka arrives and the mission turns into a dungeon crawl to the exit
Gali, Trondar and the unit with the book must get out, then Gali will seal the door.
All units left inside are lost.
Gali must make haste to another forge, the minor entrance (map may need to be smaller). (Scen 4)
All remaining units are auto-recalled.
Frostbite affects all non-mechanical units
Enemies are wild beasts, Lokkas guards, Lokka when he arrives and begins the chase
The Issaelfr give unwitting directions, not knowing that there is a problem
Lokka agravates them while chasing.
While Gali and Trondar work on Stormbreaker, some other dwarves develop greaser powers
(greasers added to recruit list)
Cave showdown scenario between Lokka and Gali (Scen 5)
Lokka and Volur are captured
Lokka is killed, but he gets Stormbreaker to Volur, who runes away
Volur must be captured, but in the process the Issaelfr Lady is angered and must also be killed (Scen 6)
(this is going to need a better reason, the real reason is that we wanted to fight the Issaelfr for once)
Gali and Trondar cross Iceswept bay on wooden birds to deliver Stormbreaker, opposed by warrior spirits (Scen 7)
Alfhelm kills Vaniyera, the Dark Thunderblade
The power of the Thunderblades is broken
Faolan and Issaelfr lord join forces to fight Gali for revenge for Vaniyera and the Lady respectively (Scen
(this is heralding the birth of the high elves, so even as these two die it's clear that their races will intermingle again)
Gali kills the elves and returns home
Gali is summoned before the council to acccount for his crimes

 
What do you think?

[Mars]

The central idea is very good. A gradual changeover to Clockwork Dwarves should be rewarding in terms of both story and gameplay. Of course FE factions are not balanced against IE (they should be stronger) but I'm sure you'll be able to use scenario setups to keep it challenging and fun.

But. The change is too quick, it should be forced rather than voluntary. I suggest not using any Clockwork Dwarves (CD) in the first scenario. When other dwarves object to the contract and begin to fight, then Gali can cut loose, i.e. from scenario 2 onwards. Any recruited IE dwarves can be recalled, CD units should be introduced gradually. If you're going to have exploding guns, provide an ingame reason, preferably something that will explain why the new CD unit looks like it does. Gali shouldn't just be turned into a wanderer either, there should be an explanation.

The problem is that changing from IE to FE can't be incidental. I don't know exactly how much latitude you're willing to take with Turin's guidelines and whether he still cares; for what it's worth I think you're keeping true to the spirit but you should realize that this campaign which used to be about one thing is now about another thing. The player will be experiencing the changing of the dwarves very directly, so it will become central. The ending of the Thunderblades will become secondary. I think the way to solve this is to make this about all factions changing.

Don't mess with scenario 4's storyline. The Issaelfr taking Stormbreaker off of Volur, then Gali retaking it by killing the Lady, is a good story. And it's a good setup for the Issaelfr and the Sidhe joining forces. If you want to foreshadow the FE, you can use HE units for the Lady and her avenging Lord. Also, although, the marauders appear only incidentally, you can make Alfheim say stuff about the glorious future he foresees for his people that reflect what his faction will change to. Also, make one or two remarks about the decline of the Lavinian empire after the fall of Silvium, so that players will know the entire era is changing. Finally, if Gali's CD units become the new standard for the dwarves, when he is summoned before the council he can't give in. He can be sentenced but be defiant if you want, then you could add in an epilogue that history proved Gali right.

[UnwiseOwl]

The central idea is very good. A gradual changeover to Clockwork Dwarves should be rewarding in terms of both story and gameplay. Of course FE factions are not balanced against IE (they should be stronger) but I'm sure you'll be able to use scenario setups to keep it challenging and fun.

The balance of the Eras against each other and against the mainline are an ongoing concern. Though it makes sense from a worldbuilding view that each era would become stronger, from a gameplay view I have long felt that it would be better if they were rescaled at approximately the level of the mainline, which would allow their wider use and encourage more people to use these beautiful factions. In the FE, the Aragwaithi and the Khaganates already have mainline-level equivalents, and I intend to continue to work towards balancing all of the Orbivm eras as much as possible. While the clockworks are currently very powerful compared to the IE, I do intend to scale them down accordingly, so this might not be as much of an issue.

But. The change is too quick, it should be forced rather than voluntary. I suggest not using any Clockwork Dwarves (CD) in the first scenario. When other dwarves object to the contract and begin to fight, then Gali can cut loose, i.e. from scenario 2 onwards. Any recruited IE dwarves can be recalled, CD units should be introduced gradually. If you're going to have exploding guns, provide an ingame reason, preferably something that will explain why the new CD unit looks like it does. Gali shouldn't just be turned into a wanderer either, there should be an explanation.

I was intending to force the change. My intention is to begin the campaign with a small force of cavernei, have those units continue as cavernei throughout the campaign (with the exception of a couple forced to turn into wanderers to deal with the conditions at the end of the first scenario), and then allow the gradual recruit of more varieties of clockworks. The reason for doing this is primarily a campaign balance one. I don't want to give the player the chance to recruit lots of cavernei and then have to manufacture a reason to remove them, as players dislike losing their recall lists. Instead, I hope to allow the player to recruit only a few clockwork units early, and gradually increase the varieties that they can recruit. I think the pacing is decent:
Scenario one has a pre-set number of cavernei troops to fight the monsters.
When it becomes apparent that the gaseous conditions in the mines make it unsafe to use thunderers, any thunderers that the player has become just thunderers with a melee attack.
Towards the end of the level, Gali discovers the old forge and designs a walker to help the dwarves fight the monsters (He himself won't be becoming one, he will stay as a Runesmith.)
Then a lot of time passes. To deal with the ongoing moster issue, Gali develops the Triggermanns rifle. It's based on the same runic principles of the thunderer, but works without fire so that it can be safely used in the gaseous conditions of the Tahn.
When the marauders attack Gali arms the thunderers that haven't yet been issued rifles and they effectively become the clockwork soldiers.
(At this point we have any remaining cavernei veterans, plus a recruit list of soldiers, triggermenn and walkers.)
When Gali is imprisoned by Volur at the beginning of scenario two, he builds contraptions in his cell. From this point on contraptions are recruitable (although it's unlikely that Gali will find a keep to recruit them in this scenario).
The next new unit is the greaser. While they're crafting stormbreaker, some dwarves start training in the building and maintenance of the clockwork devices.
The wooden bird is added when they need to cross Iceswept bay in scenario five, and the change to clockwork recruiting is complete, but any cavernei still alive will continue on (There's some nice character byplay and conflict between old and new within Gali's team as well as outside it that I want to play on, but I don't want to force the player to lose recruits).

The problem is that changing from IE to FE can't be incidental. I don't know exactly how much latitude you're willing to take with Turin's guidelines and whether he still cares; for what it's worth I think you're keeping true to the spirit but you should realize that this campaign which used to be about one thing is now about another thing. The player will be experiencing the changing of the dwarves very directly, so it will become central. The ending of the Thunderblades will become secondary. I think the way to solve this is to make this about all factions changing.

That's certainly my intention. I'm still using the breaking of the thunderblades as the climax of this campaign, though, so I don't thin we should lose the importance of it, even as the focus is drawn back to the dwarves themselves.

Don't mess with scenario 4's storyline. The Issaelfr taking Stormbreaker off of Volur, then Gali retaking it by killing the Lady, is a good story. And it's a good setup for the Issaelfr and the Sidhe joining forces. If you want to foreshadow the FE, you can use HE units for the Lady and her avenging Lord. Also, although, the marauders appear only incidentally, you can make Alfheim say stuff about the glorious future he foresees for his people that reflect what his faction will change to. Also, make one or two remarks about the decline of the Lavinian empire after the fall of Silvium, so that players will know the entire era is changing. Finally, if Gali's CD units become the new standard for the dwarves, when he is summoned before the council he can't give in. He can be sentenced but be defiant if you want, then you could add in an epilogue that history proved Gali right.

The High Elves aren't really an option as the Issaelfr and Sidhe are still very definitely split at this point, but I certainly plan to use the last scenario to heavily hint at the dawn of the High Elves being just around the corner.

Good to see you still around and taking an interest in Orbivm. It's very encouraging.

[Mars]

Good to see you still around and taking an interest in Orbivm. It's very encouraging.

Thanks, I feel the same about you and you do a great deal more for the era. I just play with it.

The balance of the Eras against each other and against the mainline are an ongoing concern. Though it makes sense from a worldbuilding view that each era would become stronger, from a gameplay view I have long felt that it would be better if they were rescaled at approximately the level of the mainline, which would allow their wider use and encourage more people to use these beautiful factions.

Good idea, one problem with IE is that there isn't a Default + IE option, so whenever my friends want to play Undead or something, I'm preventing from playing an IE side (and vice versa, we alternate).

The High Elves aren't really an option as the Issaelfr and Sidhe are still very definitely split at this point, but I certainly plan to use the last scenario to heavily hint at the dawn of the High Elves being just around the corner.

You seem to have thought of everything. I thoroughly approve. Just one question, though: I guess you could take the Lady from the mistral magus line but wouldn't it be more interesting if she was a unique character? I mean, you can play up her interest in Stormbreaker and/or the new CD technology, so she has goals of her own rather than just accidentally standing in the way.

[UnwiseOwl]

If you're looking to play Default + Imperial and are running 1.11 then you could always download Ageless II era and comment out everything else. I guess I'll make a combine era sometime once we feel that the balance is ok, but that's a long way in the future.

Yeah, gotta do something different with the Lady. I'm sure something will occur to me...

[Temuchin Khan]

The central idea is very good. A gradual changeover to Clockwork Dwarves should be rewarding in terms of both story and gameplay.

I agree. Maybe I'll actually play Gali's Contract for a change!