Hellenistic Era (336-107 BC)

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Forty-Two
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Hellenistic Era (336-107 BC)

Post by Forty-Two »

Hellenistic Era

Mediteranian Civilizations from Alexander the Great's Conquests to the Marian Reforms

-------------------------------

I want to create an era to simulate classical battles with. (Who would have won if Julius Caesar has fought Alexander the Great?) However, I am worried about balancing it. I've heard that many Eras suffer from severe balance issues.

I'd like to start out with a moderately balanced era, instead of having to apply balancing retroactively. I know that with an equal amount of money, two armies should be equal, but I am not sure how to estimate how much money a unit should cost. Any tips here would be greatly appreciated. Another useful thing would be the relative increases across levels, especially related to xp. I have been unable to discern a clear trend in xp values across various units. How should I go about determining this?
Last edited by Forty-Two on September 25th, 2012, 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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GCS d- s+: a---@ C+++ UL++ P L+++ E- W++ N o? K? w--- O? M--
V- PS++(--) PE- Y+ PGP t 5? X(+) R tv-- b++(+++) DI+(++)
D(+) G e-(*)>++@ h! r!>+++ y? 
decoded

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Colouredbox
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Colouredbox »

Well Velensks guide on designing standard factions and eras would be a good place to start:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34782
Waiting for cheesedwarfs to be added to ageless.

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Forty-Two
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Forty-Two »

Colouredbox wrote:Well Velensks guide on designing standard factions and eras would be a good place to start:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34782
Thanks, that's a very interesting read.

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GCS d- s+: a---@ C+++ UL++ P L+++ E- W++ N o? K? w--- O? M--
V- PS++(--) PE- Y+ PGP t 5? X(+) R tv-- b++(+++) DI+(++)
D(+) G e-(*)>++@ h! r!>+++ y? 
decoded

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Forty-Two
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Forty-Two »

Ok, I'm thinking of setting this Era around 300 BC. The factions will be
  • Romans
  • Carthagians
  • Macedonians
  • Persians
  • Gauls
(The greek city-states are not included because their style of fighting would be inherently hard to balance).

This will allow feasable campaigns on the Conquests of Alexander and the Punic Wars. Pretty much anything else in the medeterranian could be simulated up to Marian reforms.

The Romans will be defined by a high hp, cost, and damage phalanx; the Macedonians by their medium cost phalanx and cavalry; the Carthigians by their high damage-low cost ships, the Persians by their spearmen (These are the closest to the mainline in terms of unit balance); and the Gauls by their low-cost infantary unit.

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GCS d- s+: a---@ C+++ UL++ P L+++ E- W++ N o? K? w--- O? M--
V- PS++(--) PE- Y+ PGP t 5? X(+) R tv-- b++(+++) DI+(++)
D(+) G e-(*)>++@ h! r!>+++ y? 
decoded

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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Temuchin Khan »

Forty-Two wrote:Ok, I'm thinking of setting this Era around 300 BC. The factions will be
  • Romans
  • Carthagians
  • Macedonians
  • Persians
  • Gauls
(The greek city-states are not included because their style of fighting would be inherently hard to balance).

This will allow feasable campaigns on the Conquests of Alexander and the Punic Wars. Pretty much anything else in the medeterranian could be simulated up to Marian reforms.

The Romans will be defined by a high hp, cost, and damage phalanx; the Macedonians by their medium cost phalanx and cavalry; the Carthigians by their high damage-low cost ships, the Persians by their spearmen (These are the closest to the mainline in terms of unit balance); and the Gauls by their low-cost infantary unit.
Sounds interesting. I helped with the semi-historical Imperial Era, but I'd like to see a fully historical ancient Mediterranean/Middle East era. Some questions:

1. Are you and bs grom, who posted a thread entitled "Ancient Era," working together or not?

2. Have you seen the Imperial Era? It is a mixture of semi-historical and fantasy factions, rather than straight history, but it does have Romans ("Lavinian Legion"), Numidians (Lavinia's Nemidian allies), Germanic tribes ("Marauders"), and quasi-Celts ("Arendians").

3. Roman legions were more flexible than Macedonian phalanxes, as the Battle of Cynoscephalae proved. So what do you have in mind when you say that the Romans will be represented by a phalanx?

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Forty-Two
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Forty-Two »

Question:

I'm not sure how to code special units such as the elephants and the ships. Elephants were not a relatively strong unit in terms of the damage they would do and they could be easily killed by experienced soldiers, but they were very frightening to units that had not faced them in battle before. The Romans were fairly adept at handling these beasts, and could even turn them around and get them to charge at their own men. However, not all countries had faced elephants before, and many soldiers turned and ran when they saw their first elephant. I have a good idea of how to code a frightened unit, but I am not sure how to dermine if soldiers will be frightened in the first place.

The ships are a whole different story... There were many different ways of attacking in the age of galleys, and many different factors affected the fight. *remes could ram, shear the enemy's oars, board, use a crow, shoot arrows, use ballistas, and shoot flaming projectiles. Some attacks don't make sense in the wesnoth sense either, such as boarding a spearman, or ramming a cavalry unit. There were also defenses on some ships that nullified the effects of barding and ramming. Even only going for partial historical accuracy here, there are some bewildering problems that need to be handled.

EDIT:
Temuchin Khan wrote: Sounds interesting. I helped with the semi-historical Imperial Era, but I'd like to see a fully historical ancient Mediterranean/Middle East era. Some questions:

1. Are you and bs grom, who posted a thread entitled "Ancient Era," working together or not?

2. Have you seen the Imperial Era? It is a mixture of semi-historical and fantasy factions, rather than straight history, but it does have Romans ("Lavinian Legion"), Numidians (Lavinia's Nemidian allies), Germanic tribes ("Marauders"), and quasi-Celts ("Arendians").

3. Roman legions were more flexible than Macedonian phalanxes, as the Battle of Cynoscephalae proved. So what do you have in mind when you say that the Romans will be represented by a phalanx?
1. No

2. I have not, but from a quick look, it seems that it has less realism than I'm going for.

3. I plan to make phalanxes relatively strong on flat ground (~70% def) and weak on anything obstructed (~30%). The manaples will be more even (probably 60% on flat, but 50% hills). The phalanxes will also suffer from a negative ability that halves their defenses when there is another opposing unit on their other sid (simulating them getting flanked), but will have double defenses otherwise (Kindof a cross between steadfast and backstab). The phalanxes were really a fairly fragile unit that only worked in set pieces where both sides used them. However, they were very useful when used with cavalry.

Code: Select all

GCS d- s+: a---@ C+++ UL++ P L+++ E- W++ N o? K? w--- O? M--
V- PS++(--) PE- Y+ PGP t 5? X(+) R tv-- b++(+++) DI+(++)
D(+) G e-(*)>++@ h! r!>+++ y? 
decoded

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Forty-Two
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Forty-Two »

Here's a preliminary of the roman race; note that this only shows chains; branches will be added later. This also only shows the roman race; the era will include mercinaries to cover their holes (like lack of archers).

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Hastatus			Princeps				Triarius								(Maniples)

Eques				Decurio															(Roman cavalry; fairly weak)

Skrimirshers		Velites															(Skirmirshers)

(Sergeant)			Tribunus Militum		Consul			Emperor/Dictator?		(Leader...)
Here's a tentative list of minor races:
  • Balears
  • Cretians
  • Numidians
  • Spaniards
  • Germans
  • Syrians

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GCS d- s+: a---@ C+++ UL++ P L+++ E- W++ N o? K? w--- O? M--
V- PS++(--) PE- Y+ PGP t 5? X(+) R tv-- b++(+++) DI+(++)
D(+) G e-(*)>++@ h! r!>+++ y? 
decoded

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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Temuchin Khan »

Looks good!

If I may offer a suggestion, perhaps the ranks in the leader line could be slightly amended:

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Aspirant			Tribunus Militum		Consul			Imperator		
I suggest "Aspirant" for the level one because a young patrician would serve in the army in a lesser capacity for a while before he could become a tribune, and because his military career was seen as a stepping stone toward a political career.

I suggest "Imperator" for flavor, and because some successful generals were hailed as "Imperator" in an honorary sense even before Caesar made it the functional equivalent of "king."

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Forty-Two
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Forty-Two »

Temuchin Khan wrote:I suggest "Aspirant" for the level one because a young patrician would serve in the army in a lesser capacity for a while before he could become a tribune, and because his military career was seen as a stepping stone toward a political career.
I'm trying to use actual roman titles wherever I can. I like 'Imperator' for this reason; however, 'aspirant' is more of a word rooted in english with no parallel to latin usage or Roman rank. (I might end up using Dux as one of the ranks...)

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GCS d- s+: a---@ C+++ UL++ P L+++ E- W++ N o? K? w--- O? M--
V- PS++(--) PE- Y+ PGP t 5? X(+) R tv-- b++(+++) DI+(++)
D(+) G e-(*)>++@ h! r!>+++ y? 
decoded

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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Temuchin Khan »

Forty-Two wrote:
Temuchin Khan wrote:I suggest "Aspirant" for the level one because a young patrician would serve in the army in a lesser capacity for a while before he could become a tribune, and because his military career was seen as a stepping stone toward a political career.
I'm trying to use actual roman titles wherever I can. I like 'Imperator' for this reason; however, 'aspirant' is more of a word rooted in english with no parallel to latin usage or Roman rank. (I might end up using Dux as one of the ranks...)
"Eques" might work for the level one leader, given that young, aspiring patricians would often serve in the cavalry before becoming tribunes. "Decurion" or "Patrician" might work for the same reason. Of these, "Decurion" would be an actual military rank, the other two references to his status.

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Forty-Two
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Forty-Two »

Temuchin Khan wrote:"Eques" might work for the level one leader, given that young, aspiring patricians would often serve in the cavalry before becoming tribunes. "Decurion" or "Patrician" might work for the same reason. Of these, "Decurion" would be an actual military rank, the other two references to his status.
This style of naming creates some advantages and some disadvantages:

By the time of the Punic wars, all members of the equites became officers, and it was actually members of the First class that served in the cavalry. Naming the first class officers equites would work well because this was what the equites actually did. However, it leaves me with nothing to call the regular cavalry. At this time, the Romans were using mainly allied cavalry, but had not the resources that they had later when cavalry became mainly auxiliary. There is really nothing that fits the description of mounted units than equites, so I can't go this path.

Decurion would work fairly well in that position. However, it gives me nothing to use for the second rank of the cavalry. Suggestions?

Also: I'm not sure how to set up ships due to the WIDE array of attacks and factors that go into their battles. I don't like the way EoFM did it, given that I have to make a variety of ships that can't resemble each other too much.

Code: Select all

GCS d- s+: a---@ C+++ UL++ P L+++ E- W++ N o? K? w--- O? M--
V- PS++(--) PE- Y+ PGP t 5? X(+) R tv-- b++(+++) DI+(++)
D(+) G e-(*)>++@ h! r!>+++ y? 
decoded

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bs_grom
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by bs_grom »

Forty-Two wrote:
Temuchin Khan wrote:"Eques" might work for the level one leader, given that young, aspiring patricians would often serve in the cavalry before becoming tribunes. "Decurion" or "Patrician" might work for the same reason. Of these, "Decurion" would be an actual military rank, the other two references to his status.
This style of naming creates some advantages and some disadvantages:

By the time of the Punic wars, all members of the equites became officers, and it was actually members of the First class that served in the cavalry. Naming the first class officers equites would work well because this was what the equites actually did. However, it leaves me with nothing to call the regular cavalry. At this time, the Romans were using mainly allied cavalry, but had not the resources that they had later when cavalry became mainly auxiliary. There is really nothing that fits the description of mounted units than equites, so I can't go this path.

Decurion would work fairly well in that position. However, it gives me nothing to use for the second rank of the cavalry. Suggestions?

Also: I'm not sure how to set up ships due to the WIDE array of attacks and factors that go into their battles. I don't like the way EoFM did it, given that I have to make a variety of ships that can't resemble each other too much.
I have similar problems as you when it comes to promotions Roman Nobiles path.
I wanted to make the promotion of Equites Senator, later the consul, and later on syktator (just what he did to the senator?)
Cavalry (10) led a wczasie crisis Decurion all walk the dictator and the whole cavalry Master equitum. I still had the idea that the Romans defeated enemies exchanged for slaves (slave was promoted to the gladiator). Just who exactly would have this ability.Wait what you come up with and if you do not mind can will comply at own era.

Post 2
Forty-Two wrote:Here's a preliminary of the roman race; note that this only shows chains; branches will be added later. This also only shows the roman race; the era will include mercinaries to cover their holes (like lack of archers).

Code: Select all

Hastatus			Princeps				Triarius								(Maniples)

Eques				Decurio															(Roman cavalry; fairly weak)

Skrimirshers		Velites															(Skirmirshers)

(Sergeant)			Tribunus Militum		Consul			Emperor/Dictator?		(Leader...)
Mu isea is that Centurio(n)(2)->Tribunus Militum(3)->Lagatus(4)
Last edited by Crendgrim on September 28th, 2012, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged double post

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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Hellenistic Era (336-107 BC)

Post by Temuchin Khan »

Actually, there is another solution that we've all overlooked, until now:

Tribunus Iunior -> Tribunus Senior -> Consul -> Imperator

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Horus2
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Horus2 »

Forty-Two wrote:Some attacks don't make sense in the wesnoth sense either, such as boarding a spearman, or ramming a cavalry unit. There were also defenses on some ships that nullified the effects of barding and ramming.
Actually both of them would be a rejoiceful addition to the ballista-only ships of Wesnoth.
Boarding bridges would do a nice melee attack, and i do not think it cannot be used on land targets. It is basically the soldiers coming from it doing the damage, after all. As for ram, use a filter to be available only when attacking a mechanical unit (not 100% sure that it is doable, but if my memory server right, i saw something similar already).
Forty-Two wrote:There were also defenses on some ships that nullified the effects of barding and ramming.
WINR, but if you must, you can still use, let's say 50% resistance for impact damage.

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Forty-Two
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Re: Balancing Eras

Post by Forty-Two »

bs_grom wrote:
Forty-Two wrote:This style of naming creates some advantages and some disadvantages:

By the time of the Punic wars, all members of the equites became officers, and it was actually members of the First class that served in the cavalry. Naming the first class officers equites would work well because this was what the equites actually did. However, it leaves me with nothing to call the regular cavalry. At this time, the Romans were using mainly allied cavalry, but had not the resources that they had later when cavalry became mainly auxiliary. There is really nothing that fits the description of mounted units than equites, so I can't go this path.

Decurion would work fairly well in that position. However, it gives me nothing to use for the second rank of the cavalry. Suggestions?

Also: I'm not sure how to set up ships due to the WIDE array of attacks and factors that go into their battles. I don't like the way EoFM did it, given that I have to make a variety of ships that can't resemble each other too much.
I have similar problems as you when it comes to promotions Roman Nobiles path.
I wanted to make the promotion of Equites Senator, later the consul, and later on syktator (just what he did to the senator?)
Cavalry (10) led a wczasie crisis Decurion all walk the dictator and the whole cavalry Master equitum. I still had the idea that the Romans defeated enemies exchanged for slaves (slave was promoted to the gladiator). Just who exactly would have this ability.Wait what you come up with and if you do not mind can will comply at own era.
It seems pretty unlikely to me that the Rmans would have gladiators who were forced to fight each other for the Roman's pleasure become part of their army. :P
Post 2
Forty-Two wrote:Here's a preliminary of the roman race; note that this only shows chains; branches will be added later. This also only shows the roman race; the era will include mercinaries to cover their holes (like lack of archers).

Code: Select all

Hastatus			Princeps				Triarius								(Maniples)

Eques				Decurio															(Roman cavalry; fairly weak)

Skrimirshers		Velites															(Skirmirshers)

(Sergeant)			Tribunus Militum		Consul			Emperor/Dictator?		(Leader...)
Mu isea is that Centurio(n)(2)->Tribunus Militum(3)->Lagatus(4)
This would not be historically accurate naming; (Correct me if I'm wrong) Lagatus did not come into use until the Roman Empire. (
Temuchin Khan wrote:Actually, there is another solution that we've all overlooked, until now:

Tribunus Iunior -> Tribunus Senior -> Consul -> Imperator
Unfortunately, the Wikipedia article on Tribunes says that those titles were not used until the late roman empire. This would not be consistant with the chosen time period.
Horus2 wrote:
Forty-Two wrote:Some attacks don't make sense in the wesnoth sense either, such as boarding a spearman, or ramming a cavalry unit. There were also defenses on some ships that nullified the effects of barding and ramming.
Actually both of them would be a rejoiceful addition to the ballista-only ships of Wesnoth.
Boarding bridges would do a nice melee attack, and i do not think it cannot be used on land targets. It is basically the soldiers coming from it doing the damage, after all. As for ram, use a filter to be available only when attacking a mechanical unit (not 100% sure that it is doable, but if my memory server right, i saw something similar already).
Forty-Two wrote:There were also defenses on some ships that nullified the effects of barding and ramming.
WINR, but if you must, you can still use, let's say 50% resistance for impact damage.
By bridges, do you mean the crow? I'm thinking that the best way to handle this would be to give them an attribute "Boat" that halved the damage that they dealt while on land. (Alternatively, damage dealt could be proportional to their mp on that hex) I don't want to make them mechanical, since their crews could still be poisoned, drained, or killed by plague.

For leadership classes, I think the best solution is: (Where Decurio is a prestige class).

Code: Select all

Equite--|--Decurio
        |
        |--Tribunus Militum--Consul--Imperator

Code: Select all

GCS d- s+: a---@ C+++ UL++ P L+++ E- W++ N o? K? w--- O? M--
V- PS++(--) PE- Y+ PGP t 5? X(+) R tv-- b++(+++) DI+(++)
D(+) G e-(*)>++@ h! r!>+++ y? 
decoded

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