Khalifate gameplay thread (feedback on balance and bugs)

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Wintermute
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Wintermute »

First, an apology that it's taken me so long to update this thread. I've been and will continue to be really busy with limited internet access this summer so some things are moving slowly. I'm not sure when the next update will be, but there will be one (It's ready when it's ready).

Second, it's not constructive to say "Wesnoth should be _____" or "Wesnoth should have more _______ in it", where you can fill in the blanks any way you choose. This faction is additional content to a game that is free and that a group of people have worked very hard on. Many people have contributed to - like most other aspects of Wesnoth. I'm not trying to single anyone out, but there are quite a few posts in this thread along the lines above and I tend to ignore them. If you don't like this faction, don't use it! I don't like all the maps that ship with the game, so I don't play on the maps I don't care for. Problem solved!
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
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Mint
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Mint »

Wintermute ; the problem is they're being considered for default. If they become default, it does become our problem. So thats probably why all this is voiced in the first place :(
Gundulf of bec
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Gundulf of bec »

Oh, I was just curious as to what direction the faction was heading in, not suggesting that it should be one way or another.

Keep up the incredible work!
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Xalzar
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Xalzar »

Gundulf of bec wrote:Oh, I was just curious as to what direction the faction was heading in, not suggesting that it should be one way or another.

Keep up the incredible work!
The faction has no directions now: it is definitive. We shouldn't discuss now about how the faction should have been. Now only balancing is in discussion.

[ot]One thing which left me perplexed at the time was the seemingly (as far as I know, but maybe I missed something) unilateral decision to include the Khalifate by the Developers, skipping the opinion of at least the authoritative members of the forum... I'm not opposed to the decision, let me clear this (I like them), but can I ask why the Khalifate? :hmm: Just for curiosity... :whistle: (you can PM me if you do not want to pervade this thread...)[/ot]
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Wintermute
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Wintermute »

Mint wrote:Wintermute ; the problem is they're being considered for default. If they become default, it does become our problem. So thats probably why all this is voiced in the first place :(
They are not going to be in default any time soon. They will remain in detault+Khalifate until such time as most people want to play that faction instead (who knows how long that will take). We're not just going to ruin the careful default balance by throwing in something new and then forcing people to play with it, have no fear!
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Noy »

Mint wrote:As they are, khalifate are just loyalists mark II. They are just humans, with crazy resistances. There's no middle eastern mythology in this at all. A middle east faction without it doesn't deserve to even be contemplated being in I think. Other creatures like fish people and trees are in, so this makes khalifate basically boring. Wesnoth is meant to be a 'fantasy turn based strategy game'. Where's the fantasy in khalifate?
Please explain what constitutes acceptable "Eastern mythology." Preferably in essay form, lets say 2000 words. I expect it on my desk by next Friday.

Mint wrote:Wintermute ; the problem is they're being considered for default. If they become default, it does become our problem. So thats probably why all this is voiced in the first place :(

Let me help you out here. Its not your problem at all. You can either chose to play this game or don't play it.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

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Scatha
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Scatha »

Noy wrote:
Mint wrote:Wintermute ; the problem is they're being considered for default. If they become default, it does become our problem. So thats probably why all this is voiced in the first place :(

Let me help you out here. Its not your problem at all. You can either chose to play this game or don't play it.
That's not really an accurate picture of things. Any time a change is made to something which negatively impacts Mint's enjoyment of something, that seems to be a problem for Mint.

Perhaps you meant that it wasn't anything Mint could do anything about. Again that seems false. Mint was presumably trying to change things by process of discussion and expressing preferences, on the premise that persuading the developers that the suggested change would make the game better overall might lead to its enactment. This attempt may fail, but Mint always has the recourse of doing it him/herself (splitting the project if need be)! Perhaps you simply mean that you don't think Mint will bother, but that's a long way from what you said.

I don't think I know enough about the matter to have a firm opinion, but I'd love to see that essay!
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Noy »

Scatha wrote: That's not really an accurate picture of things. Any time a change is made to something which negatively impacts Mint's enjoyment of something, that seems to be a problem for Mint.

Perhaps you meant that it wasn't anything Mint could do anything about. Again that seems false. Mint was presumably trying to change things by process of discussion and expressing preferences, on the premise that persuading the developers that the suggested change would make the game better overall might lead to its enactment. This attempt may fail, but Mint always has the recourse of doing it him/herself (splitting the project if need be)! Perhaps you simply mean that you don't think Mint will bother, but that's a long way from what you said.
None of this is a concern of the project. It has always been run by developers according to their interests and desires. Saying "its a problem" implies that there is some sort of obligation on our part to satisfy the desires of users, when no such obligation exists.
Xalzar wrote:
[ot]One thing which left me perplexed at the time was the seemingly (as far as I know, but maybe I missed something) unilateral decision to include the Khalifate by the Developers, skipping the opinion of at least the authoritative members of the forum... I'm not opposed to the decision, let me clear this (I like them), but can I ask why the Khalifate? :hmm: Just for curiosity... :whistle: (you can PM me if you do not want to pervade this thread...)[/ot]
Its been on the books for about six years. Most developers and "authoritative members" knew about this for years.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Scatha »

Noy wrote:None of this is a concern of the project. It has always been run by developers according to their interests and desires. Saying "its a problem" implies that there is some sort of obligation on our part to satisfy the desires of users, when no such obligation exists.
Well in that case I at least disagree with your choice of put-down. Perhaps "It's your problem, not ours." would have been more appropriate?

But I think that the implication was not one of obligation (you guys do awesome work in your own time! How could there be any obligation?), but that they thought that at least some of the developers had interests and desires which were aligned with making the game as enjoyable overall for users as possible.
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Noy »

Scatha wrote:
Noy wrote:None of this is a concern of the project. It has always been run by developers according to their interests and desires. Saying "its a problem" implies that there is some sort of obligation on our part to satisfy the desires of users, when no such obligation exists.
Well in that case I at least disagree with your choice of put-down. Perhaps "It's your problem, not ours." would have been more appropriate?

But I think that the implication was not one of obligation (you guys do awesome work in your own time! How could there be any obligation?), but that they thought that at least some of the developers had interests and desires which were aligned with making the game as enjoyable overall for users as possible.
That looks like a bit of a hair split. And lets be frank here, Mint's comments were inflammatory and based on the pretty flimsy argumentation. You arguing for his/her position just seems like an attempt to argue for the sake of arguing, which is irritating to say the least.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.
Velensk
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Velensk »

I suspect you're being overly sensitive even though I agree with you that Mints arguments do not have a strong base.

@Mint and on that topic: The Khalifate may be just humans but they don't really play like the loyalists, more like the drakes really but even then it's a stretched comparison. I suppose the faction does lack many of the more fantastical elements of eastern mythology but when it comes to it so does just about everything else in wesnoth (lack many elements of their mythos that is). Does it really make sense for the Khalifate to deploy Djinn as a military unit for example? Do they have such a reserve of those that they can simply recruit them (and if it did how could it balance them and still do justice to the mythos)? Let the campaigns handle the special units.
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by UngeheuerLich »

I don´t see, why voicing one´s opinions is bad in a DISCUSSION forum. But well...

I personally don´t see why an Ifreet would not fit into the Kalifate faction, besides that they are looking harmonic and more or less complete right now.
I am waiting for the next Developmen release for more testing.
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Dixie »

I especially support this comment:
Velensk wrote:Does it really make sense for the Khalifate to deploy Djinn as a military unit for example? Do they have such a reserve of those that they can simply recruit them (and if it did how could it balance them and still do justice to the mythos)? Let the campaigns handle the special units.
There might be all kings of added middle eastern fantasy units in campaign. You don't get to recruit ancient liches, chocobones and skeletal knights in mainline, but they still exist and add flavour to the game.
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Mint
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Mint »

Wintermute ; could something be done about the quatif-al-nar? like some quick name change. The reload screw ups are not
really something that should happen and are terrible, especially wastes of time in campaigns. :( thanks
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Wintermute
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Wintermute »

Mint wrote:Wintermute ; could something be done about the quatif-al-nar? like some quick name change. The reload screw ups are not
really something that should happen and are terrible, especially wastes of time in campaigns. :( thanks
It's fixed in trunk so it will be in the next development release. I'll make sure it's fixed in the next addon release too, but that won't be for a bit because what little time I have right now is working on updating stuff for the next dev version.
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
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