Era of Four Moons

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taptap
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by taptap » April 21st, 2012, 3:55 pm

The "standard" ability (imperialists) probably works fine in MP, but in campaigns you have units with >50% resistance (e.g. the stone spirits in Panther Lord) the standard ability not only doesn't increase it but reduces the pierce resistance from 60% to 50%. (I believe Velensk, Elvish Hunter etc. just copy-pasted the code from elsewhere. The same bug exists in The Sojournings of Grog -> Trollish Warbanner or the Aragwaithi Flagbearer unit line.)

Trireme: If you want to ram an enemy ship, you have to do it at or below the waterline. I know that the Wesnoth ships are in no way realistic, but still I think it would be great when the sprite would reflect that :) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_ram)

Hex ability: causes error message in replay - although it is still possible to watch the replay..
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

Velensk
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Velensk » November 2nd, 2013, 9:46 pm

I'm back and a new version is out and released.

Since it's been awhile there've been a lot of changes to get it to where I want it to be to start balancing from. Most of the tweaks have been minor but some major ones:
Sappers are no longer a deterministic damage dealer, instead they attack like a normal unit and get one strike per 10% enemy defense. They still die at the end and always have a 70% chance to hit.
The whities have been re-engineered slightly. I'm going to see how boosting all their hp ratings at the expense of their defense works out.
There are now several new advancements and some rearrangement to some of the unit trees in the extended era. New units include
->Hoplite/Phalanx advancements for Imperialist Legionaire. Slow, stalwart, advancement for legionaire.
->The sandwalker and nomad lines have been swapped around a bit and the sandwalker can now level into a pretty strait forward warrior.
->Bard/Balladier advancements for Whitie warrior. Has the wardrums ability which increases damage of all melee attacks adjacent to it, and at level 3 the saga ability which makes it so that every time an adjacent allied unit scores a kill the balladeer gives an experience bonus to all adjacent units (including the one who scored the kill)
->Vigilante advancement for the Whitie warder (the unit originally called by that name has been renamed), unit with backstab and concealment but no level 3.

In addition to those and several minor tweaks there's new art for a few of the extended era units.

I'm really excited to get back into balancing Era of Four Moons and would very much appreciate feedback and replays of it in use. I'm more interested in replays for the core four factions than the extended factions and have no interest in all in replays on champions or EoFM+default. Hopefully once I get the core factions locked down tightly I can start seriously working on the extended factions.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Velensk
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Velensk » November 13th, 2013, 2:19 pm

I released a quick patch that should fix the canoe oos errors.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Velensk
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Velensk » November 20th, 2013, 7:26 pm

New version released for 11.7 only to include a description and to be compatible.

There is one new balance tweak in it, hippo unit for highlanders and leveled form are neutral.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Jon_dArc
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Jon_dArc » November 27th, 2013, 1:38 pm

Playing Panther Lord>Breaking the Spear on 1.11.7 with EoFM 0.4.1 (the canoe-OOS-release), I found a bug with Hex on a Sagiharii on Forest; unit defense is 30% as expected before Hex, but after applying Hex defense on Forest jumps to 45%. The affected unit's defense on other terrain looks right.

I've confirmed that this also affects Raiders. All other units that I can immediately verify (that is, within range of a Hexing unit) seem to work fine.

In other news, it looks like the most recent EoFM release has version number 0.4.0. Is this an error, or have I managed to do something horrible to my EoFM install somehow? I don't think I edited anything…

Saves attached in case it isn't me doing something wrong. Will grab new EoFM on server and check if issue persists.

~J

Edit: now that I think about it, I had updated the MISSILE_FRAME_MUZZLE_FLARE_MISS macros to add arguments so EoFM would load on 1.11.7. I may have bumped the version number at the same time without thinking about it, but it probably should have been incremented on the server for the new release anyway and almost certainly didn't affect Hex.
Attachments
PL-Breaking_the_Spear_ターン_12.gz
Save from immediately prior to triggering bug, for trying different targets
(165.66 KiB) Downloaded 259 times
PL-Breaking_the_Spear_ターン_12-bug.gz
Save from after triggering bug
(166.24 KiB) Downloaded 291 times
Last edited by Jon_dArc on November 27th, 2013, 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jon_dArc
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Jon_dArc » November 27th, 2013, 1:50 pm

Issue persists on new EoFM version, though I'm working off the same save, and existing units in saves that cross add-on updates have been treated weirdly in the past—IIRC I had a case where a unit had an ability added, and preexisting units of that type remained ability-free. If I get a chance I'll try starting a new game and checking if the issue still persists.

~J

Velensk
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Velensk » November 29th, 2013, 4:20 pm

I think I fixed the animation issue for the mussel flair but it might require a fresh save. I'll check again later today when I have time.

As for the curse bug and also bugs for defense on imperialists (such as 50% defense in forests instead of 30) ect, I recently learned what is causing those and will fix that in the next release. Under certain circumstances the hex ability does not take into account a unit can have a negative defense that while effectively positive has a few odd effects and when decreased increases.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Velensk
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Velensk » February 27th, 2014, 2:33 pm

Era of Four Moons is now out on the 1.12 server (accessable through 1.11.10). This release is mostly just to claim a spot and provide a way for EoFM to be accessed however there are some major tweaks. This advancement came in the middle of me working on a major rehaul of the era which is currently partially completed but you should already see some major changes.

Unfortunately, I lost the flash drive where I was keeping the active changelog so I can't list all the tweaks I've done. However here are some of the major ones:
->Fixed the bug that causes hex to give some units better defense on some terrains.
->At the same time, fixed imperialists and other units getting better defense on forests than they should.
->Highlander hunters have lost marksman but their cost is now 12.
->Lion Warriors cost->19
->Hippos are now neutral
->Pygmies are now liminal and have undergone other related rebalances.
->Some whities and freemen now have art (though the artist asked me to say that some of it is already marked for fixes).

I am currently 98% done with a new campaign which features the Freemen as the playable faction. The remaining 2% is me actually beating it on normal so that it matches my playtesting standards (not sure how long this will take, it's not an easy campaign). However, I would prefer to wait to do a general release on it until all the Freemen base art is done. If anyone wants an advance copy, just PM me.
->After I am finished with it I intend to rebalance Panther Lord and finish with my tweaking. At that point I will become extremely interested in multiplayer feedback again.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

hebetude
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by hebetude » March 5th, 2014, 4:55 am

I'd been playing through Panther Lord again recently and encountered some interesting replay corruption. I've attached the replay file.

Things go wrong in human turn 6.

The following happened during gameplay, no problems:
1. Tribesman at [25, 11] begins the turn cursed, kills the Shaman Witch Doctor at [27, 8], and levels up. IIRC, the game prompted me twice to choose a level 2 unit. I chose Militia both times. The unit was healed, and the curse was removed.
2. Tribesman at [24, 9] kills the Runner at [28, 10] and levels up. I chose Militia.

The following happens instead during the replay:
1. Tribesman at [25, 11] begins the turn cursed and kills the Shaman Witch Doctor at [27, 8]. The level up animation is shown twice. The Tribesman (now 41/40 XP) does not level up or heal, and it remains cursed.
2. Tribesman at [24, 9] kills the Runner at [28, 10]. Level up animation shows once, on the Tribesman in #1. Current Tribesman now has 33/32 XP.
3. After all of the side 1 moves, the game says "[choose] expected but none found" three times. About the same time that the first of these error dialogs appears, the Tribesman in #1 becomes a Militia, healed and un-cursed.
4. It appears that turn order becomes corrupt, and numerous things stop making sense. Some curse!

Again, everything worked properly during the game, it is only the replay that had problems. Sorry if this is known already, or fixed in current Wesnoth.

Wesnoth 1.10.5, EoFM 0.4.1, Panther Lord 1.0.2
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Velensk
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Velensk » March 5th, 2014, 12:10 pm

I really cannot say. Assuming this replay is recent (as in, not from before and you've updated EoFM since) then I think that there's probably not a lot I can do as it's probably more an issue from the game than the era.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

siddh
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by siddh » March 11th, 2014, 10:19 am

After playing a testgame with Era of Four moons (Highlanders vs Imperialists) on the older version of wesnoth here's some feedback about balance:

Sapper. Either sapper is bugged or it's too strong. I like the idea though, but right now what it does is it works as a 1.5x Mage that frees the hex up for the next attacker.

Suggestion to fix: You might wanna work around this detail by decreasing fireresistance from those units that are supposed to be vulnerable to the sapper and then decreasing the damage of the sapper to make it less useful against all units in general. Or something along those lines.

Elephant. I like the elephant thematically, it's a really succesful unit from that perspective. But it's not very good. This is largely because you lack most of the benefits you would get from hex-concentration (level 2 unit instead of 2 level 1 units). The unit has no zoc, it has low defense, and the melee attack only works in offense. This still leaves room for the elephant to be used offensively, to increase per hex efficiency (although the elephant is still miles away from the sapper), but this doesnt work: The elephant is too slow. The highlanders must rely on mobility inorder to have a chance against the imperialists, and taking an elephant into the roster is going to be slowing the highlanders down. Also the highlander theme is swarming, so you are kind of ambivalent with the elephant. My opinion is that the elephant is only usable as a counterattack unit to hold villages close to your keep, and even in that situation it is quesitonable choice.

This is largely because the level 2 of the unit is a serious defect: Opponents gain 2 xp per combat round with it, they gain 16xp from killing it (this makes it a very vulnerable target. You don't want to see that 9/25 xp unit with 4/30 hps leveling up on your elephant.) And also you get double upkeep.

So basically recruiting an elephant is like recruiting two braves and the braves are almost always the better choice.

To balance this effect the elephant has fairly high resistances. So you could say the elephant is more resilient than the braves and so that's why you should get one.. But at the same time the elephant has lower defenses. So you have double resistances and ½ the defenses on terrain, except perhaps most importantly, on flat. So you would want to put the elephant as a blocker on flat instead of the braves and other units.. But the elephant doesnt have zoc, and it doesnt have a good counter melee attack. So in short the elephant is very well defined unit.. You want to attack with it, increase per hex effiency, and preferably you want to use a flat hex when other units cant. But the elephant being slow makes this purpose very hard to achieve.......

Still I like the elephant and I think it's a very succesful unit, but it's hard to find a situation where you'd really want to recruit it. If you'd increase the movement of the elephant then that would thematically ruin it, so that option is not on the table.

Suggestion to fix: Reduce goldcost to 22 pieces, movement cost on hills 1MP, movement cost on forests 2MP

PS. I didn't remember to think about the possibility of getting a quick trait on the elephant. That makes it useful and on otherhand makes adjustments on hill/forest costs undesirable. And in general teh imperialist faction seems stronger than the highlander faction.

Also it seems like a really well-made era overall :D

Velensk
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by Velensk » March 11th, 2014, 3:14 pm

I have been thinking that I should do something about the sapper, though the thing I was thinking of a sight increase to the price and makeing it so that sappers cannot be affected by leadership. In general, I don't think they're too powerful, they're only good vs targets with good defense and they cost 8 gold and can only be used once.

As for the elephant, the elephant is quite intentionally inefficent. The reason a person would recruit an elephant is because it is very effective at two very specific tasks which are things the faction as a whole is a bit weak on. The first is that they do great damage per hex clocking in at 42 damage at night (next unit after them is the brave at 21 neutral or lion warriors at night with 22) and the second thing they do is that they can hold down a single hex very effectively, even against things that are good against high defense units. They arn't great for holding lines but if you need one unit that can just tank five units to hold a village (or 3 units +2 sappers who'd each only get 3 strikes vs it), the elephant is probably your best bet. You probably won't want many of them, and you may be more versitile grabbing more of your weaker faster infantry but when you need to smash through a fortified enemy position at night, an elephant is a great help.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

siddh
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by siddh » March 12th, 2014, 5:44 pm

Alright I suppose the elephant is fine...

...But the Sapper seriously isn't. I'm not sure if there's a bug that makes more useful in stable version of wesnoth? But it's seriously too powerful. You pay 8 gold and with that you get the ability to bust open any line of defense? In late game when both sides have lots of units you tend to move back and forth and try to get the better position, and often your opponent wants to try and limit your ability to attack from more than 2 hexes.. In that position Sapper is very useful. It's impossible to hold a village if your opponent has a sapper for an example. It's a very big difference for just 8 gold.

But then again I'm not all that strong at competitive wesnoth perhaps you should get a second opinion from one of the stronger players? I'm anticipating they'll have a similar opinion but.. Of course I could be mistaken..

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max_torch
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by max_torch » March 13th, 2014, 2:35 pm

[quote=siddh]It's a very big difference for just 8 gold. [/quote]
seems like sapper is similar to a certain degree to the dwarf ulfserk? Well Ulfserk costs 19 gold even though it is so fragile. Sapper can help greatly take out certain units in certain situations and is also fragile like the ulfeserk but it's only 8 gold..
Edit: I know this has and is being playtested, i havr faith. but im just trying to understand more the units and the factions
Last edited by max_torch on March 13th, 2014, 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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iceiceice
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Re: Era of Four Moons

Post by iceiceice » March 13th, 2014, 2:44 pm

siddh: I actually specced part of the game you mention between Horus and yourself, Highlanders vs. Imperialists on the Freelands. As I recall you both mentioned at the beginning that you weren't familiar with the era, and despite what you say about sappers being too good, I recall the Imperialists lost despite making lots of sappers. Sappers are certainly different from the default units, but I think we should have a little faith in Velensk, i.e. if you "seriously" think they are too good, you could at least demonstrate this by using them to win a few games. It's not as if there has been no playtesting done on Era of Four Moons.

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