Double attacks and hp for all units.

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anonynoname
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Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by anonynoname » June 15th, 2010, 11:18 am

This idea is for mainline.

I propose doubling both the number of attacks and amount of hitpoints for all units in the game.

This will offer the following benefits:
1. It will be more realistic: considering how long each segment of the day is; how many hours does it take to stab someone three times with a spear?

2. It will make luck less of a problem, because the chance of all of your attacks hitting or all missing is less. For example: imagine you're fighting a unit with 1 hp left on 50% defence:
If you get 1 attack, you have a 50% chance of killing him.
If you get 2 attacks, you have a 75% chance of killing him.
If you get 4 attacks, you have a 87.5% chance of killing him.

3. It will make the game easier to balance because hp can be adjusted more precicely.
It will not unbalance the game as long as relevent things are adjusted. For example the "resillient" trait will need to be adjusted to +8hp +2hp per level to keep the balance the same.

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Ken_Oh
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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by Ken_Oh » June 15th, 2010, 11:59 am

I made this suggestion 4 years ago: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9668

That said, "It's not going to happen." However, you are free to tweak the game and make your own era that reflects the idea. I put "It's not going to happen" in quotes, because there is always the chance that if you make this era, and many people play it, it could have an effect on mainline.

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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by Hulavuta » June 15th, 2010, 1:16 pm

Also, I think it says somewhere in the FPI's that Wesnoth is not Realistic. Stabbing a guy 6 times with a spear in a few hours isn't really realistic either, anyway.
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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by HomerJ » June 15th, 2010, 1:56 pm

What happened to the less luck era, is this still on? If so OP could ask for collaboration.

Rereading the less luck era thread I think that might be something entirely different, however, maybe a nice read for OP anyway. :wink:


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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by zookeeper » June 15th, 2010, 2:00 pm

anonynoname wrote:It will not unbalance the game as long as relevent things are adjusted.
Such as...let's see...poison and slow?

anonynoname
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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by anonynoname » June 15th, 2010, 2:22 pm

Ken_Oh wrote:I made this suggestion 4 years ago: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9668

That said, "It's not going to happen." However, you are free to tweak the game and make your own era that reflects the idea. I put "It's not going to happen" in quotes, because there is always the chance that if you make this era, and many people play it, it could have an effect on mainline.
I'd like to make such an era.

Do you think it will be easy? Would you like to help? This is gonna be fun.
zookeeper wrote:
anonynoname wrote:It will not unbalance the game as long as relevent things are adjusted.
Such as...let's see...poison and slow?
OK, thanks.

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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by Caphriel » June 15th, 2010, 3:24 pm

Healing would also need to be adjusted. There might become some minor tweaks necessary due to traits, damage rounding, etc. For instance, strong would become twice as effective, as would dexterous. In particular, the interaction of strong/dexterous with rounding would be significant. At the moment, for example, a non-dexterous elven archer does 5-4 to a drake fighter. A dexterous one deals 7-4. 20 vs 28 maximum damage. With this change, it becomes 40 vs 56 maximum damage, exaggerating the effect of the trait even more.

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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by Velensk » June 15th, 2010, 3:29 pm

You would have to find someway to tweak some hard-coded effects.

Sauron tried to do the much more extreme version of this a while back. I didn't like that mod however this is a concept that I do not mind even were it mainlined.
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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by artisticdude » June 15th, 2010, 3:50 pm

Not that my opinion really matters at all, but as I see it this is a lot of work mainly for the 'realism' argument. Luck may have a role, certainly, but I'm afraid I really don't understand how this would improve the luck factor. :?

EDIT: and as tsi pointed out below, this would unnecessarily slow the gameplay down a lot.

You have to balance the gains against the losses here. Are

-Slower gameplay
-All the work that it would take to modify the abilities and unit stats

worth

-Improved realism (which still isn't much more realistic than the original state of things, since you wouldn't really stab someone either three or six times an hour)
-Possibly improved luck factor (although I still have yet to comprehend how exactly this would change the luck factor in any significant way)?
Last edited by artisticdude on June 15th, 2010, 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by thespaceinvader » June 15th, 2010, 3:52 pm

This'll slow down attack rounds, a lot.
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anonynoname
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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by anonynoname » June 15th, 2010, 3:53 pm

Caphriel wrote:Healing would also need to be adjusted. There might become some minor tweaks necessary due to traits, damage rounding, etc. For instance, strong would become twice as effective, as would dexterous. In particular, the interaction of strong/dexterous with rounding would be significant. At the moment, for example, a non-dexterous elven archer does 5-4 to a drake fighter. A dexterous one deals 7-4. 20 vs 28 maximum damage. With this change, it becomes 40 vs 56 maximum damage, exaggerating the effect of the trait even more.
Strong and dextrous would be no more effective than they are now:
Double strikes makes them twice as effective.
Double hp makes them half as effective.

But thanks for pointing out healing.

Here is the list of things that need changing:
Traits: resilliant.
Abilities: heals + 4, heals + 8, poison and slow.
Other: healing in villages.
Last edited by anonynoname on June 15th, 2010, 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by anonynoname » June 15th, 2010, 3:56 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:This'll slow down attack rounds, a lot.
You can use the "Accellerated speed" setting to make it faster, that doubles the speed by default.

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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by thespaceinvader » June 15th, 2010, 4:15 pm

I already do.

This sort of thing has slim to no chance of ever being implemented in mainline, but you're welcome to do what you can as an add-on.
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anonynoname
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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by anonynoname » June 15th, 2010, 6:16 pm

Well I think that it will only slow down attack rounds by about 25% in practice because a lot of time is spent thinking and clicking on the units to tell them were to move.

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Re: Double attacks and hp for all units.

Post by anonynoname » June 15th, 2010, 6:25 pm

artisticdude wrote:Not that my opinion really matters at all, but as I see it this is a lot of work mainly for the 'realism' argument. Luck may have a role, certainly, but I'm afraid I really don't understand how this would improve the luck factor. :?

EDIT: and as tsi pointed out below, this would unnecessarily slow the gameplay down a lot.

You have to balance the gains against the losses here. Are

-Slower gameplay
-All the work that it would take to modify the abilities and unit stats

worth

-Improved realism (which still isn't much more realistic than the original state of things, since you wouldn't really stab someone either three or six times an hour)
-Possibly improved luck factor (although I still have yet to comprehend how exactly this would change the luck factor in any significant way)?
-Slower gameplay ---- I do not think it will slow the gameplay down much because a lot of time is spent thinking and clicking the units where to move. You can adjust the unit's move and attack speeds anyway.
-All the work that it would take to modify the abilities and unit stats ---- I do not think it will be much work, only a couple of hours for 1 person, and I am willing to do this myself.
-Improved realism ---- This is a small advantage, more importantly it is unrealistic for a unit to fight for several hours and deal exactly no damage, and this is less likely to happen if the unit has twice as many attacks.
-Possibly improved luck factor ---- I explained why it will reduce the luck in the first post.

I intend to do this and have it ready for testing by Friday, if I need to make an entire modified version of Wesnoth then I will; I don't know how flexible the addon system is.
Last edited by anonynoname on June 15th, 2010, 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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