Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

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seahen
Posts: 18
Joined: February 5th, 2009, 9:53 pm

Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by seahen »

Looking at http://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/C/mainline.html, I see a few ways
it can be condensed without sacrificing anything.

First, the Elder Mage is listed as lv5, but compared to the lv4 Great Mage he
has fewer hit points, weaker and otherwise functionally-identical attacks, and
the same defenses (except less fire resistance). Seems to me like one more
quest-only unit than the game needs; I suggest that he be replaced with an
Arch Mage or Great Mage in all quests where he appears, and that the Great
Mage's fireball be cosmetically changed to a lightning bolt (no sense
throwing away the art and sound effects). NB: Since the Elder Mage does have
six movement points to the Great Mage's five, we may want to swap in the
Quick trait when doing the replacement.

Second, the Lich is a dead-end lv3 unit, while the Ancient Lich is a lv4 unit
that nothing promotes to. Given that the Mage has a four-level career ladder,
it makes sense to me to give the Dark Adept one as well; why not let the Lich
advance to an Ancient Lich? (We may want to rename it to Archlich or
something, to reflect its attainability over the course of a campaign.) I
suggest that the advancement take at least 200 XP, and we may want to cut his
magical attacks to 4 per round.

Third, all but one of the units under the "Wolves" header are actually
goblins that ride wolves. So why not move them under "Goblins" and the basic
Wolf under "Monsters"?

Finally, allowing the Water Serpent to advance to a Sea Serpent, and the
Tentacle of the Deep into a Water Serpent, would give the Monsters a
three-level advancement chain, which they currently lack, and make them less
of a jumble of unrelated units.

To explain flavour-wise how tentacles turn into serpents, we can say the
Tentacles belong to ancient serpents, who are too old to crawl to the
surface. In their final stage of life, they reproduce asexually by enlarging
their tentacles, which eventually break off and grow heads and tails. Weird,
yes, but things with tentacles are supposed to be weird.
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PeterPorty
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Re: Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by PeterPorty »

Ok... uhhh.... yeah, to start off, I want to say I don't see anything wrong with your proposal, it is not a bad idea. HOWEVER, I think there is so little to gain, and a decent amount of work to put on it. (maybe it's just me, I just don't like making nonesense stuff.)
Anyway, if you think this is a must (probablly not) then you might want to do it yourself, since this was your idea.
Good luck - Pete
"The real world is for people who can't imagine anything better."
seahen
Posts: 18
Joined: February 5th, 2009, 9:53 pm

Re: Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by seahen »

PeterPorty wrote:Anyway, if you think this is a must (probablly not) then you might want to do it yourself, since this was your idea.
Okay, here it is. How do I get it reviewed for patching onto the trunk?
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seahen
Posts: 18
Joined: February 5th, 2009, 9:53 pm

Re: Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by seahen »

Update: Here's an alternate version that adds units under the old IDs for backward compatibility.
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The Great Rings
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Re: Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by The Great Rings »

seahen wrote:Looking at http://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/C/mainline.html, I see a few ways
it can be condensed without sacrificing anything.

First, the Elder Mage is listed as lv5, but compared to the lv4 Great Mage he
has fewer hit points, weaker and otherwise functionally-identical attacks, and
the same defenses (except less fire resistance). Seems to me like one more
quest-only unit than the game needs; I suggest that he be replaced with an
Arch Mage or Great Mage in all quests where he appears, and that the Great
Mage's fireball be cosmetically changed to a lightning bolt (no sense
throwing away the art and sound effects). NB: Since the Elder Mage does have
six movement points to the Great Mage's five, we may want to swap in the
Quick trait when doing the replacement.
Given your complaints against it mostly pertain to its weakness for its level, wouldn't it make more sense to simply upgrade it? It adds diversity, and I don't know why you seem to think diversity is a bad thing.
Second, the Lich is a dead-end lv3 unit, while the Ancient Lich is a lv4 unit
that nothing promotes to. Given that the Mage has a four-level career ladder,
it makes sense to me to give the Dark Adept one as well; why not let the Lich
advance to an Ancient Lich? (We may want to rename it to Archlich or
something, to reflect its attainability over the course of a campaign.) I
suggest that the advancement take at least 200 XP, and we may want to cut his
magical attacks to 4 per round.
There are probably balance reasons why this would be rejected. However, I kind of like the idea. The Ancient Lich is one of my favorite units.
Third, all but one of the units under the "Wolves" header are actually
goblins that ride wolves. So why not move them under "Goblins" and the basic
Wolf under "Monsters"?
That seems logical.
Finally, allowing the Water Serpent to advance to a Sea Serpent, and the
Tentacle of the Deep into a Water Serpent, would give the Monsters a
three-level advancement chain, which they currently lack, and make them less
of a jumble of unrelated units.
Hmm, interesting. Since these are monsters, I'm not sure it would have much effect on balance. Might be worth doing.
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seahen
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Joined: February 5th, 2009, 9:53 pm

Re: Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by seahen »

The Great Rings wrote: Given your complaints against it mostly pertain to its weakness for its level, wouldn't it make more sense to simply upgrade it? It adds diversity, and I don't know why you seem to think diversity is a bad thing.
I don't think diversity is a bad thing, I just think that when we can achieve it without increasing the length of lists (e.g. by giving the Great Mage a different attack from the Red Mage and Archmage), it's a good idea.

Are you saying that you'd like the Elder Mage to stay a level 5 unit and be buffed up accordingly? Hmm, okay. How about we make his hit points 75, his attacks 10-2 and 18-5, his price 80 gp, and let the Great Mage advance to him at 220 XP?

I would suggest, though, that his movement be dropped to 5 points. It doesn't make much sense to me for a human mage to stay at the same jogging speed for most of his career, and then suddenly speed up in his old age.
Schierke
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Re: Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by Schierke »

But isn't the Elder Mage just Delfador?

I think that the Elder Mage and the Ancient Lich are supposed to represent the most powerful and legendary in the world of Wesnoth, that's why they aren't part of any unit tree.

I think the fact that the Elder Mage is weaker than the Great Mage is for balance reasons (Delfador is already almost a one man army at the beggining of HtTT) and could be explained lore wise simply because his age should make his powers a little weaker, but he is still the legendary and wise Delfador.
seahen
Posts: 18
Joined: February 5th, 2009, 9:53 pm

Re: Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by seahen »

Schierke wrote: I think the fact that the Elder Mage is weaker than the Great Mage is for balance reasons (Delfador is already almost a one man army at the beggining of HtTT) and could be explained lore wise simply because his age should make his powers a little weaker, but he is still the legendary and wise Delfador.
Then shouldn't his level decline to reflect this?
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thespaceinvader
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Re: Suggestions for simplifying core unit tree

Post by thespaceinvader »

This is not something which will happen in mainline.

Delfador's stats are intended to show his advancing age. It's intentional that he's slightly weaker than a Great Mage.

The loose level 4 units are intended as campaign bosses, not as advancements from level 3 units. Most of them would be horribly unbalanced if they did advance from level 3 units.

The Monsters are a loose grouping of units on purpose. The Tentacle of the Deep levelling into a water serpent would make no sense - the ToD is a tentacle from a monster living deep under the surface. The WS is a river- and inland-dwelling water snake. Similarly, the Sea Serpent is a SEA serpent, where the WS lives inland. They are different, and not intended to level from one to the other.

It's difficult to know where to classify critters which exist both loose and with riders, like the Gryphons, Wolves (we do intend on putting in a levelling tree for the wolves, actually, now that we have up to date graphics for all 3 levels) and potentially horses, since we will eventually be putting a wild horse into mainline. I don't think there is a schema which would satisfy everybody, so we'll stick to the one we have for now.

You're welcome to do what you like as UMC, however.
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