Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by Dixie »

fog_of_gold wrote:
Edit: What should the "Oiled" status effect cap the target's defenses to in your opinion? It should obviously be between 20 and 50%, but I was more hesitating between 30 and 40%. What do you think? 30%, maybe?
I'm not sure what you think about: Wasn't the oil status meant to decrease the target's defences by xx%? -If you wouldn't keep this, we can surely delete the scavenger since you won't use them anymore. Or are you thinking about capping the decreasement? -I wouldn't cap it since dazzle already set the defence to 20% (if you follow my suggestion) and you wouldn't use it then. If you'd allow to be cumulative (you know, value's readed in first, then comes add, sub, multiply and at least divide. It'd be done automatically), you'd even make the players use the scavenger more they do already.
I was more thinking that Dazzle would cap the enemy's CTH (thus increasing the bots' defense) and Oil would cap the enemy's defense (thus increasing the bots' CTH). I agree they can be a pretty good combo together, but it still is pretty selective: you still have to hit your enemies (every turn for dazzle, less so for oil), and oiling/dazzling a whole army quickly would require your forces to only be comprised of oilers/scavvies, which leaves you pretty unarmed/undefended...
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by fog_of_gold »

Sorry about that. I completly forgot defence and cth are two different things. I suggest to set it to 30%. It makes it even less useful it is already against mechanical units. BTW, what do you think about removing oil after moving? -It would be the same like slow but being removed faster if used while attacking but it would also make the enemy move away from important positions like a village. It isn't very wesnothy but still KISS, easy to get in-game and interesting.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by lindsay40k »

And we have version 2 Robot sprites:
Spoiler:
I decided to go with tracks or wheels for all the non-Scavengers as it makes them look clearer and suits the steampunk theme. I'm definitely going to redo the corona around the Forager's bulb, and maybe bulk it up a bit. Probably going to do a fair bit of reworking on the Oiler; I'd like it to carry the oil tank on its back, but not quite figured how just yet. Tank might well be redrawn to give it a taller profile; when it goes for a swim, it ends up being a pair of smokestack 'periscopes'. Volley gun's ammo belt needs tidying up and making more distinct. And I'll be making the eyes match player colour, too.

Minor unit details aside, how does this wood, brass and iron scheme generally look to you guys?


Re Cannons firing indirect. I'd given thought to this myself, and don't like the idea. It's very un-Wesnoth, there is already a Ranged era and the feel of it is very game-changing. It's not a bad idea, but it doesn't belong in an era that's going to be commonly mixed with both Default and other eras. This sort of long-ranged artillery is something that fits better in a platoon-level wargame, not a squad-level skirmish. However, there is a 'beam' ability (or suchlike) in some era my friend plays that has attacks hit both the target and whomever is stood directly behind; whilst this is an ability I regard as extreme, it does not change the flow of gameplay anywhere near as much as true indirect fire and I'd be happy to see it in this era.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by Dixie »

@ Bot sprites:

I think it's coming along good :) Some general comments:

- Tank: It is true that he is pretty low, but maybe you could just place his head on the chasis instead of in front of it, with maybe a plow/cattle catcher in front? Also, eve if I have never tried those codes previously, I think it is possible to both 1) alter the sprite on different terrains (have inflate yellow-orange-red balloons around the tracks when on water, for instance) and 2) change the level the sprite appears on the map depending on terrains (so as not to have only two smokestack-periscopes when on water terrains). I can look into that eventually, but I believe it is possible.

- Scavengers and up: Scavenger is nice. Forager too, although the pincers are harder to distinguish at first glance, and maybe a bit of darker outline on the light bulb could help define it. I really like the millipede! But the Centipede might be too similar to the Scavenger? I have difficulty picturing how he will use his legs to attack... Maybe it should look somewhat more in between the millipede and Scavenger, just rise it's front body slightly so as to have two free legs to attack?

- General design: It is nice, but they are all pretty similar. It is especially true for the Battle Bot and the Machine Gun. Some variation (appart from the arms) could be nice: be it in colour palette (for instance, the Oiler could be blacker, made of that material they used for ancient frying pans, furnaces and stuff. In french, we say it's "fonte"). You could try varying the shapes a bit, too. I dunno: slightly different heads, eye shapes, maybe even body shapes (Oiler's body could be a big black oil tank, perhaps?)

- @ colors: I honestly haven't taken to time to replace the actual sprites to see what it looks like in game/next to other sprites. My gut feeling tells me maybe they still are kinda lightly shaded, but I haven,t really tested to confirm. Also, maybe it looks a bit "flat" for metal? Maybe you should have darker shadows and brighter lights, so has to give a more chromed/metally impression? I dunno. Maybe future sprite demos could be made in the form of part of a screenshot taken from the game, picturing your units on grass background or something, next to some other units? Hell, you wouldn't even really need to go through the trouble of screenshotting the whole thing: just screenshot a base grass patch with hex grid and some unit, and then you can place your units on there manually for displaying/testing purpose. Btw, I see you haven't gotten to team color yet either :P

- If you really wanted way more constructive criticism, I suggest you posted those in the art thread I amde for my sprites, which serves the whole faction, really (or will one day, anyway). Although if you prefer to start your own thread, it's your business, of course :)


Other comments aside, since you are one of the main designers for the bots, what were your impressions about having the sentinel being an independant unit line capped à Lv2? What do you think about the Roller's place in the faction6 With tanks, battle bots, sentinels or delete?

About the artillery range, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I didn't think of attacking from many hexes away, but really to add a new "attack range". Actually you have "melee", "ranged", and we could add "artillery". Which would really need the unit to be adjacent to it's target, but wouldn't fear retaliation from non-artillery attacks. And, of course, wouldn't use those to retaliate against non artillery attacks.

About the general state of the era: I've started some serious work on the code. Tweaked some stats here and there, added new pirates units and abilities (haven't decided 'bout artillery range yet though, but I'm envisionning it more and more), started coding Oil, etc. Haven't done more work on the sprites as of yet. I'll get back on it sometime.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by lindsay40k »

re palettes: yeah, like I say I'm usually on a 12-year old machine when I'm drawing, so my swatches are really limited... once I've got a general colour scheme and design template in place, I'll use a much broader selection of colours to give me better shading.

re Scavenger line: yes, I was thinking about doing something with the Centipede. Probably give it four sets of limbs, with the front ones raised.

re Gun/Battle bot: Perhaps extending the eyepieces of the gunbot will make it look more 'ranged'...

re Oiler: Yes, I'm planning on darkening this to make it look more like cast iron and 'sooty'. Doing my design on a CRT monitor really makes it difficult to judge contrast levels :D

re screen grabs: Great idea! I'll do it next time I'm online. And I'll post it in the art thread!

re rules: Not sure right now where to move things in the 'bot tree. I really, really like the idea of the steamroller/combine harvester from hell, and really want to find a place for it in the faction. The point you raise about similarity to Dwarfs is a good point, however; but, isn't the similarity somewhat limited by a lack of a fast melee unit, limited number of powerful ranged attacks, poor mobility in terrain, and access to Poison?

I don't know what I think about the melee/ranged/artillery idea... I'd love to draw an artillery 'bot, I guess it's an issue that really needs playtesting. There is a risk that if the 'bots bring a mortar, the Pirates a Cannon and the Ninjas a Firework, the whole era could become 'the artillery era'.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by Dixie »

Well, I had written a whole reply but it seems it was lost. Darn. I'll try to sum it up a bit:

@ Robot design: I'm mostly trusting you, lindsay, I don't want to give the impression that "it's my business and I boss you around!", I see it mostly as a cooperative work.

@ Balance: As my understanding of mainline tactics and factions grows, I've been considering my actual "balance". I have to have some central units for each faction, maybe slightly overpowered compared unit-by-unit (or using fog's calculus), but the rest of the faction compensates. I want the factions to have flavour, to feel special and unique, not just thematically assorted.

I will try to establish the prices for the units first, than note them from 1 to 3 (or to 5?) on their importance/centralness to the faction, and somewhat balance in consequence. We will see what it gives, anyway.

@ Other concerns:
- Unless there are steep objections, I think I will include artillery. I really like how that feels. Pirates have cannons, Ninjas will get fireworks, and maybe bot will get something too, but I really don't know what bot it would profit to. And I'm don't really want to add any more bots at this point.
- Ninjas have no flyer/water unit, yet I do not want to give them an additionnal unit. Some already existing unit might get a "walk on water" kinda ability. Maybe the Kusa since it's pretty magical already.
- I want to "mostly finish" pirates, ninjas and bots before I get myself into the cowboys' rework. Let alone the Triffids (although I have started collecting some ideas we can discuss later).

EDIT:
Ah, yes, I was wondering if we should give a little more acces to Dazzle and Oil? The former would fit the ninjas nicely: high evasion, flash bombs, etc. while the the latter would fit the cowboys (thematically speaking): ain't it a western classic how poker cheater get dipped into oil barrels and then rolled into feathers or something? I think it could fit in well.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by fog_of_gold »

@artillery:
I'm for making this range, too, but it feels me every faction would need to have at least one artillery unit for a good balancing.

@dazzle:
It could fit into the smoke bomb line. I wouldn't really like it in the first level, in the first smoke bomb, but I imagine it would be possible to either make it be another attack or make it be another possible line to advance or a special coming in later levels.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by Dixie »

Okay people, I ought to give you some news about the development. It's been moving quite a bit this week in the era, so I'll fill you in:

@ Ninjas:

I have added the rocket cart as an artillery unit, and removed the Serf from the recruit list. I will consider adding an alternative level up to the Teisatsu that uses a Dazzling Flash Bomb. I've done a few more sprites, not all that great, but I'd like to ideally finish spriting the faction for the next release.

@ Pirates:

Although I haven't tested them extensively, it all seems to work in general. I have replaced the Lv2 Cannoneer by a Dragon, a unit equipped with a Blunderbuss that attacks three units at once. I have added cannons as an independant line, which have two special ranged attacks: one that does double damage against mechanical units (mainly: bots, artillery and ships), and a revamped version of grape shot that attacks 5 hexes at once (instead of doing auto damage when the main target was hit; also, the 5 hexes are the one adjacent to the target). Those cannons have an alternative Lv2 that can attack two targets at once: the main one, and the unit behind it. I also added ships, which are more resistant than the average pirate but have their weaknesses (mainly: fire and cannonballs. Blades somewhat, too) and which have the two same artillery attacks than the main cannon, plus a charge melee. I have also flushed the monkeys to replace them with pirates. And I added the Slaver, as previously descripted.

@ Cowboys:

Havent done much as of yet beside just collecting a few ideas. I know that I want their explorer to be fairly mobile, more blade-melee oriented, and have a canoe to help with water control. I am also considering rethinking the balance of the faction, especially the MadGunner which makes no sense imo. He doesn't have many arms, why would he have swrm (which isn't such a great special anyway). So maybe I will just give him many strikes with an handicaping CTH, and an Oil Barrel attack or something. Ideally, I'd have it done for the next release, but we'll see.

@ Robots:

So there's a bit of change here. The Sentinel line now starts at Lv1 and caps at Lv2. The Tank is now amphibious, has a new mortar artillery attack that always has 60% CTH and can't defend (even against other artillery) and which replaces his ranged attack, has a new amphibious level (alternate to the Bulldozer), another Lv3 (more mortar-specialised), keeps the Death Roller, has a new Lv2 and Lv3 Boat units with a charge melee and the mortar and an aternate Lv3 Submarine (alternative to the Lv3 Boat) that submerges in any water that has better defenses, no melee, no steadfast, but a strong ranged torpedo attack which has a great cth against anything in water, but absolutely no cth on other terrains. Appart from that, Oiler gets the Oil weapon, as planned and I've done a bit of balance.

@ Triffids:

I have been a bad boy, people, and broke my engagement to not start working on the triffids. But GUYS! I had all these great ideas that just had to get out if I was gonna advance anything else in the faction. So I plan the Triffids to be a bit cheaper than the average otehr factiosn (though possibly not quite as much as the Nothies), with a lot of agressive specials. I also want them to have only 6 recruits available to limit their flexibility. Here are the units I plan on including:

- A pollinisator plant, which has a Pollinate melee attack (plague that creates the static, healing, gold-generating unit. I will maybe add Illuminates to those). He also has roses with a charm ranged attack (only on offense), which will switch an enemy unit's side for a single turn (returns to his original side on that side's next turn). It has 1 move and 1 attack for the duration of the charm, so it can serve as a village clearer to some extent. I will maybe give Area to that ranged attack since it's a more gas/spore/perfume thing. The unit will also have the reproduce ability, which will allow to spawn lv0 sprouts on free adjacent hexes. It's gonna work somewhat like EoMa's summon ability: unit needs to have all moves left, costs 6g, gives a bit of exp (4?)... This pollinisator will tremendously lack firepower, but will maybe be able to level all the way up to Lv9 to maximize the collective leadership I am planning (5xlevel+5%, cumulative). I am considering adding a terror-like negative leadership ability that uses the same formula. Only the pollinisators would get it, though.

- Some kind of root/vine unit that has burrow and an impact Entangling melee weapon. When a hit is scored with Entangle, CTH is set to 70%, and the unit continues attacking until it misses a strike. 2-Lv up paths: one with thorns (blade or pierce melee, undecided), maybe loses entangle, maybe Ambush instead of Burrow and poison, either on it's thorn melee or on some ranged, I haven't decided yet. The other level up concentrates on improving Entangle: it will probably gain constrict (each successful hit in a roll increase damage by 1 or 2), drain and bloodlust (can attack another adjacent enemy unit when it kills an enemy). Of course it wouldn't get all that all at once at Lv2, I'd keep some for the Lv3. It serves as the faction's village clearer.

- A drain-healing plant: it would only get melee attacks (something like 6-3), and each successful hit restores 1/3 of the damage inflicted in HP to him AND all adjacent allied triffids. Probably only one level-up path which increase damage. Maybe at some point the 1/3 could become 1/2. And the Lv3 might get Fueling (+1 melee damage per kill) as a weapon special, too.

- A cheaper wose-like unit, possibly with regenerate and ambush. It will be much cheaper than the wose and have much less fire power, probably a little less HPs too. Maybe it will only get Ambush at later levels, that rests to be seen. It serves as the faction's damage soaker.

- A scout, a flying dandelion-like unit with 60% defenses (like the bats). Not muc firepower, but probably a melee attack stealing gold and maybe a ranged one stealing experience. Possibly two or three level up paths: A better gold-stealer, maybe one that gets a stunning attack (prevents a target from moving, zocing, attacking and retaliating for a turn) and possibly a unit with infect (when it kills a unit, it transforms into it).

- And the faction only lacks a shooter, which might get a cold attack and maybe water mobility. The cold attack will be essential VS drakes as the faction is rather weak to fire as a whole. It also lacked a water unit to this point, so here it is.

So I have coded most of the special abilities but have some major debugging to do. What do you think of all this?

A last note before finishing the post: I'd want to release a new version soon, since there's been so much change lately. I will at least finish and debug the triffids, if I could tweak the cowboys it would be even better, and if I could finish the ninjas' sprites it would be just dandy.

Thanks for your support! :)
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by fog_of_gold »

Dixie wrote:[..]I also want them to have only 6 recruits available to limit their flexibility[...]
I'm really not sure if it's easy to do that with plants. Also, I'm not sure if it's good to make a aggressive faction not be flexibile. It feels me making the faction be slowlier, but I'm not sure why. If that's true, it would cool down the faction's aggressiveness.

@triffids|pollinisator:
I think summon would get to strong. A recruitable summoner is always difficult to balance and then with 6 gold cost, it's unbelievable strong. Don't forget the sprouts aren't recruitable making this unit stronger it is already. I really suggest you to increase the cost a lot; at least to 10 gold. Better would be 12 gold because of the special to level up to that much units (see below).
The experience got by the EOMa's summon is meant to be equal to the level of the unit. It's made because of the disadvantage to fight and level up. I suggest you to keep that.
For the rose attack, it's better to have a new unit for that. It really doesn't fit into this unit and at least, I'd made this unit be a level up of the pollinisator. The best idea is, in my opinion, to shove this unit and other, later mentioned abilities/units into the sprouts. You don't need to make every unit you can level up from the sprouts be recruitable.
I'm not sure if it's a good idea to allow to level to level 9. Either you won't ever get such a unit, or the enemy gets 72 experience just by killing such a unit. Fighting against this unit would give more experience than killing other units. It would make you play too defensive. You mustn't allow a lot of level-ups anyway since it wouldn't keep its aggressive, spaming style.

@triffids|root/vine:
I think a root-like unit would fit more.
The entangle special sounds interesting, but I don't think it's easy. You'd need to simultate the fight manually. Don't forget to fire the missing events and its variables.
Ambush would, in my opinion, also fit. For the level-ups, I don't think, it's a good idea to make them just increase the entangle special. One could be, for example, get a better tank, while one gets faster. Changing and increasing the resistence can also give some possibilities.

@triffids|drain-healing:
This is a pretty good idea. For the fueling, I suggest you to push it into another unit. In my opinion, it fits better into the pollinisator line.

@triffids|dandelion:
I think, the best idea is, to use its seeds for a lvl0 unit. It could advance in a slowly dandelion and another, faster dandelion seed.

@cheap wose:
I suggest you a cactus wose having pierce against drakes, being defensive (since it haven't got that big branches and limbs and having better fire resistences (I even think of better ones than the average ones) because of its water in it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, even if it doesn't fit really good into the plants, I suggest you mushrooms for a unit. It could be interesting. I imagine a terror ability, for example. A symbiosa ability healing only special types of units can be interesting, too. It feels to me it should be to have to have poison and should be chaotic. It would be a fast, aggressive unit in this faction and would make this faction go a little bit a away of plants being more general. Since every mainline faction have at least two races, it would fit wonderful. Unfortunatly, it leads us again into more recruitable units.

Edit:
Also, a mushroom can't level up from a sprouts having not the possibility to push them into this unit.

Edit:
Right now, I haven't got a lot of to do. Shall I help you debugging and coding?
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by lindsay40k »

Wow, some major changes to the Bots there. I should get a chance to play them tonight. Looking forward to trying those Triffids as well.

RE water control plant: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/ ... %C3%A9mon) is what immediately comes to mind.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by Dixie »

Well most changes were stuff we had discussed previously, although I agree it changes. The main surprise elements, I think, are the mortar attack and the submarine. But I'm still open to suggestions and tweaks :)

@ Triffids:

Well, I've changed some of my ideas, and completed a first draft of the unit tree. For instance, I have changed the exp "summon" gives, I have made the sprouts a bit more expensive (I'll try 8 gold until testing proves it's really abusive: yes, sprouts level by themselves, but they have only one move, very little life and bad defenses). I'd also like to keep charm to a Lv1: I think it's the special that's gonna give added flexibility. Appat from that, I may have overdone it a bit with entangle, and it's hard to evaluate to what extent that special is gonna be powerful: As I picture it, 4-2 is already quite good, since it could relatively easily become 4-8 (maybe?) Some testing will be required, in any event. And I personnally think Fueling fits the drain-healers: Increased damage=increased healing, you are sure to want to feed it kills.


So anyway I guess I will finish doing the unit files for the triffids and maybe release a new version later today, or at least post a zip on here, so you can try all that out later (tonight). Too bad for the other things I'd like to have completed before a new release, they can go to the next. I will also try to include your (lindsay) temporary bot sprites, if you don't overly mind. Even if they are not final versions, it will undoubtedly help diffenrenciate all those troll whelps :P
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by fog_of_gold »

Dixie wrote:[...]I have made the sprouts a bit more expensive (I'll try 8 gold until testing proves it's really abusive: yes, sprouts level by themselves, but they have only one move, very little life and bad defenses).
With one move, bad defences [and 8 experience], 8 gold is good. You can only summon them if there's a wounded enemy near making its special be a lot of less strong.
I'd also like to keep charm to a Lv1: I think it's the special that's gonna give added flexibility.
I think that, too, and that's the reason I suggested you to put the rose into a level-up of a sprout. It feels me this special mustn't be mixed with other specials. It should be very expensive anyway since, you can defeat all your enemies with as much roses as the enemy units have. With that, you are 70% strong comparing to the enemy regardless of your own level, power or cost (if you have more of your side). With other specials you can't really balance your units. Doing that, you'd need to be forced to do things like 1 move, 35 cost, 4 hitpoints and such.
Appat from that, I may have overdone it a bit with entangle, and it's hard to evaluate to what extent that special is gonna be powerful: As I picture it, 4-2 is already quite good, since it could relatively easily become 4-8 (maybe?) Some testing will be required, in any event.
The chance of getting 4-8 or more with 50% defence is(at least):
50%*50%*70%*70%*70%
+50%*70%*70%*70%*70%
=20.58%
[I counted the entagle strikes as if they are two since they (need to) hit always.]

Your right about that. I suggest you 3-1. The chance to get 3-9 is then:
50%*70%*70%*70%*70%=12.005%
And that's balanced if you think of the other abilities.
And I personnally think Fueling fits the drain-healers: Increased damage=increased healing, you are sure to want to feed it kills.
I don't think that. Draining and feeding are, in my opinion, two different things. Draining is regenerate/healing while the enemy is there. Feeding is another sort of leveling. But let's first think of the unit itself. How would you imagine such a unit? -I can't really find a good name or description for this sort of draining.
So anyway I guess I will finish doing the unit files for the triffids and maybe release a new version later today, or at least post a zip on here, so you can try all that out later (tonight). Too bad for the other things I'd like to have completed before a new release, they can go to the next. I will also try to include your (lindsay) temporary bot sprites, if you don't overly mind. Even if they are not final versions, it will undoubtedly help diffenrenciate all those troll whelps :P
There were quite a lot of changes, but let's first end this discussion. Let's delay releasing the triffids to the next release.
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by Dixie »

Version 0.0.6 is out!

I just uploaded it to the add-on server for you to enjoy :) As suggested, I have postponed the release of the triffids for now, we really need to see to their balance. I will also update the thread's first post in a few moments and put a .zip there. You are all welcome to play it, test it however you'd like, and give feedback. The art is not finished, although it has advanced, balance is far from attained, and I have not reworked the cowboys to my liking yet either. There is also a little more work to put on the ninjas (aside from art and balance): the integration of a flash bomb unit. Pirates are mostly set, I think, and robots might change some more depending on the feedback and playing experience, but it's getting there.

---

Now, to answer fog about the triffids. I'm not sure if you meant "let's not talk about the triffids anymore before the rest is settled" or rather "let's settle the triffid before we get back on the rest". I'm still gonna answer you, though.

@ Pollinisator & Sprouts:

I just remembered that of course, the 4 EXP I meant would be subject to the omnipresent 70% exp setting, so I of course need to crank it up. Probably somewhere around 6-8 exp. I'm not sure if I have mentionned it explicitly, but I was not planning to give them any attack, so their exp would have been exclusively dependant on the Grow ability. They can still get exp for being attacked, but they are so frail that you'd probably be better not counting on that.

@ Charm: I thought it fitted the pollinisator because:
1) Thematically, Charm goes with the flower. Reproduction and pollinisation, as you know, pass through flowers for (most) plants. It gets splitted in later levels, though.
2) Charm uses up a pollinisator's action for the turn, and so does the pollinate melee attack (plague for the gold-generating static plant) and the Reproduce ability ("summon" a sprout). So you get to choose what you want to do with the unit for that turn. It seems to me that separating them, on the other hand, would result in having sprout factories in the back and swarms of charmers at the front.
3) Charm IS pretty useful, but I don't think it's any ultimate. The charmed units jump back to their side when it is that side's turn, with all of their moves and an attack. Also, if the triffids charmed all of an opponent's units, there would be a point where they would just have nothing left to attack, since they'd all be on the same side. It's also worth noting that they only get 1 move and an attack, so if there are no enemy targets close by, the charm is wasted. Also, charmers are the most expensive units for the faction (which I set to 18g for now), lack any sort of heavy hitting attack and are far from being the toughest triffids out there. If you don't cover 'em a bit with other units, you risk being toast on the enemy's turn! (also: charm does not work on defense, and I made it so that a triffid cannot charm a unit of an higher level than they are). And also worth noting: Charm does grant flexibility and the inegaled bonus of removing enemy HP at another enemy's cost, but the exp would be irremediably lost to the triffids, too, which might help balance it out a bit.

@ Entangle. I concede I must think a bit more about the balance. I'm not 100% convinced by your calcul, but I get the idea and might draw inspiration from it. An alternative would be to set different chances to hit for different entangler types/levels. The way I built the special's macro, it'll be a piece of cake.

@ the drain-thing. It IS really simplistic, but so far I named it "Drain-Heal". It seemed like the most efficient name, and I don't think it is so bad. I envisionned the unit as a variation on the carnivorous plant (flytraps and such), and with Triffids being all connected mentally, and possibly by some kind of root system or whatnot, I think the ability is justifiable (thematically). About Fueling: well, it'll really just come in at Lv3, and requires that you get additionnal kills. Which is to say that it probably will never get into most multiplayer games. Competitive ones, at least, I'm not counting stuff like survivals. Anyway, even if the unit came and made use of it's fueling special, I think it fits, because more damage=more drain/heal. Which is always good. But since it's 1/3 drain/heal, it would still need to get three kills to gain 1 more point of healing (per strike). Although it depends on ToD, leadership bonus and such. I'm not too sure what your big objection is, but if that unit was to not get the ability, I would rather just not include the ability in the faction. It's mostly a flavour thing.

So, I'm off to editing the first post. :)
Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny - Frank Zappa
Current projects: Internet meme Era, The Settlers of Wesnoth
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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by lindsay40k »

The lv2 Sentinel being the first unit to get Teleport made it very powerful. Being able to deploy units with Teleport is absolutely lethal; the potential for 'cycling' them, or for spamming them onto a stolen isolated territory, makes for brutal traps. We'll have to give this some serious playtesting.

Bug report: when Oil boosts the attack strength of Fire, it seems the Fire unit's kill does not confer any XP. Also, some minor graphical glitches:
Spoiler:
Dazzled icon almost disappears, and a Tank's face getting obscured.

I'd like to request the Tank line - excepting the Death Roller - all get Charge on their Impact attack. It seems like a perfect way of distinguishing this aggressive unit from the defensive Sentinel. I'm picturing the Tanks attacking by barging and 'grinding' the foe, whereas the Sentinel has an extendible dozer blade that pushes foes away. Perhaps also remove Knockback on the Tank line...
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.6

Post by Dixie »

Well, I must admit to have not tested all of what I introduced as much as I could. I had done quite a bit of work on the triffids and rushed the rest along a little bit so I could get it out tonight for you. But you know what: let's drop the triffids for now, as previously suggested, and concentrate on making the actual stuff playable.

I'll admit the status icon thing is a problem, and I,m not sure how to fix it. As you'll probably have guess, the hex border seems to clip overlays. Dang. If you'll look at the picture below, I planned to have four icons for different statuses: Dazzle, Oiled, Charmed and Stunned. The black borders are where the Hex clips. As you can see, more than half of Dazzled would be cliped, and Stunned would barely appear at all:
statuts overlays.png
statuts overlays.png (5.07 KiB) Viewed 2382 times
Even if I said "Charmed and Stunned aren't so necessary, let's not have them", space would be lacking a bit. And it would be hard to make them smaller and still ressemble something/be visible enough. And I think placing them all at the same place would probably not be a good idea: What if you somehow had two statuses? Sure, the chances are slight since all statuses don't belong to the same faction, dazzled removes oiled when applied in second, stunned, charmed and dazzled are temporary, and I don,t know why anybody in their right mind would charm a unit that's stunned or dazzled (although Oiled could be plausible, but the triffids don't yield oil). Still, I don't know what kind of percentage it would make, but I'd prefer if they did not overlap, ideally. Especially Oiled and Dazzled. (Now that I think about it, I haven't even tested if adding a second overlay removes the previous one. That would force-solve our issue, I guess... :? I'll try it tomorrow. )

Appart from that, I have fixed the flaming-oil-not-giving-exp thing. Don't hesitate to report any other issue you might notice, I will begin more in-depth tests tomorrow, and probably publish an update of version 0.0.6 with corrected stuff. Also, don't be surprised if the Polluter/Smogbelcher don't appear: I had tried to make an halo for Darkens (which turned out to be horrible, but I've made one that looks better, although it is WAY more subtle) and messed up the image path, somehow. It is fixed as I am writing this. I don't really know what could be causing the tank-face thing.

I plan on concentrating more on the esthetic aspect of the era, too. And that doesn't only mean making sprites for every unit: for exemple, maybe you will have noticed that the bots don't do human sounds anymore when they are hit: I picked some robot sounds from IftU. Sure, they are pretty electronic and fit poorly a steam-punk theme, but that's still much better than human sounds. I'll look for more steam-punk-bots sounds in time, but this will have to do for now :) I also plan on having sounds for all specials and abilities that require them: a sound for when a unit is dazzled or oiled, etc. I also want to include some basic animations: while animating the actual units is pretty down low on the To Do list, I can at least pick projectiles animations from mainline for ranged attacks, halo animations for spell casters/healers/leaders, etc.

Also, I noticed Scavengers and ups seemed like they were floating. Although I could fix it pretty easily if you wanted to, I'll just say it so I'm sure you are aware of it (Hm, I might sound huh... "mean" and "punitive", but I'm really saying this in a friendly, "advice-giving" tone): units' feet (or base, or whatever) are generally situated around 55 pixels from the top (except for exceedingly large units, which Lv3 bots might happen to be). You could also draw shadows at their feet/base to help ground them a bit: shadows are usually done in pitch black at 60% opacity.

Now, some points about balance:

@ Keepers/Sentinels:
While I thought fog's point about the robots being slow and possibly needing a Lv1 Keeper to get to border villages quickly made a lot of sense, and although I always thought the silver mage was a bit lame, I must admit your "cycling" argument makes a lot of sense, too. Not only have they got their fair share of HPs, good resistances, steadfast, above average def (for bots, that is) on villages, the village heal and immunity to poison, but they can run away in an eye-blink to go heal in the fartest territories if needed. Yeah, it is probably overpowered. Darn :? . Weakening it could be an option, but overdoing it would kinda hinder it's primary tank role. Other options could include putting a malus on Teleport, such as making it cost HPs (a bit counter-productive when sending a freshly recruited Keeper to the frontlines), making it use more moves (not a big handicap, imo), or disabling it altogether when next to an enemy unit (maybe the most realistic option so far). Other ideas on this?

@ Tanks:
Well, I really pictured them as a more-mobile defense unit. Like, a faster, non-teleporting sentinel to keep important non-village hexes, such as a key hill or forest location. But maybe making them more agressive would make sense... I would really need to play them and test the feel they give. I liked the idea of having very low firepower on Lv1 for the faction, but being though as nail, and advancing slowly. Maybe it's horrible as far as gameplay goes, though... Although giving the tank charge would make the opponent anticipate more a Death Roller level up (by the way, I don't absolutely want to have the names that I've put for most bots. Some I downright dislike, like the "Dicer", so if you have some you'd personnally prefer, you can go ahead and suggest them). If we gave charge, I suppose it would make sense to remove knockback (which, although thematical an interesting combo, possibly counter-productive as far as gameplay goes), and maybe steadfast too, so the unit is maybe less ultimate... Btw, if you hadn't noticed, the boat line already had charge. Anyway, I'll play them a bit to get a feel and think some more about it.

While I'm thinking about it, if you,ve not noticed it, I've disabled Extractor/Refiner as leaders, because I felt it gave an unfair advantage. Not only do leader cost no upkeep, but it was like starting with an extra village. So yeah, disabled. Any objections?

Btw, I'm sorry if I somewhat came with my big boots and squashed some of the concepts you had "without telling" (because we had somewhat discussed it previously; anyway). I really appreciate your support, and feel free to continue suggesting stuff :) Same goes for you, fog. Btw, if you have a bit of free time on your hands and feel like it, it could be nice to have an overall feel of the Lv1 Bots with your calculations. You showed me how it's done, so I could probably somewhat manage it, but it's a lot of job, and I'm less used to hit... :? Anyway, fon't feel obligated in the least. :)

By the way, lindsay, if you ever wanna test later-level units, you know you can use debug mode, right? Bring up the command line by pressing this key ":" (is it called a "colon" in english? I'm having doubts), then type "debug" in the line. Afterward, you can create any unit through a right-clic menu option. You can also change their side (useful for testing team color). Sorry if you already knew :)
Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny - Frank Zappa
Current projects: Internet meme Era, The Settlers of Wesnoth
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