Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

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Aura
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by Aura »

I think the classic one was something to do with pirates, ninjas, samurai, vikings, and knights (or some combo of these), pirates and ninjas are an obvious one but the third eludes me. Still, as these are all Hollywood cliches as well I think that is a better idea for the era (it also allows for many more races should the era expand).

Anyway, I touched up that cowboy graphic for you.

Image

And here is a ninja (made by inferno8) you might like to use. All I did was replace the original arms and blades with in my opinion ones of a better pose.

Image

And some possible triffid graphics (found in the graphic library).

ImageImage
fog_of_gold
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by fog_of_gold »

@lindsay40k:
(S)He said, it's hurting him, too, the name of the era doesn't fit into the plant/insect faction. Renaming the era would be a good idea but I doubt Dixie would do.

Edit: I suggest to scroll to units having extract.
[If you don't know: You can use [scroll_to_unit] to make it work.]
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by Dixie »

About the name: Yeah, we had discussed it some time ago, but some people were in favor of changing, others weren't, so I didn't. I could change it, but the bother is mostly the (not THAT big) amount of work needed to change all textdomains and other stuff in every files. Still, it's doable, and probably prefereable in the long run. I'll get around to it sometime.

About scroll_to_unit:
I guess it would make it more obvious and easier to track. I should probably implement it sometime, too.

About the sprites:
Well, guys, I used to use sprites from various other eras for my graphics. Although they were by no means all fitting, it certainly looked better than it does right now. I thought it was a bit hypocritical, though. What's your opinion on this? Use other graphics anyway? Go around and ask for permissions? Remain as it is presently until we've work on some art of ourselves, for better or for worse? Thoughts?
Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny - Frank Zappa
Current projects: Internet meme Era, The Settlers of Wesnoth
fog_of_gold
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by fog_of_gold »

@name:
I don't care. So I'm against changing since you wouldn't be able to invest time to improve the era itself. But I also suggest to not care about the confluenz of the era name and its factions since there'd still be the possibility to change the name. I suggest to do it after this era finished (which happen very rarly, but anyway) and is just developing the balancing.

@sprites:
It would be good to have some differents between the sprites. The best example is the robots/trolls faction. The oiler, for example, looks like the volley gun, the probe and the battle bot. You don't need to change the image of the scavenger or the tanks since its hitpoints are other than the named names. I don't care about wrong images but it would be very helpful, especially to help balancing, to get the different kinds of units. So I suggest you include the images of the other eras on the named units minus one is allowed to be the troll. The others should keep being a troll to remind everyone this era's sprites aren't finished yet.

Edit: It think you should give the keeper it's teleport back. At the moment, you don't use him to defend villages. In my opinion, there's no bad to make burrow only available for one move since in general, you shouldn't be/aren't very likly to go out of your villages. This would also make burrow be more passive since you may do exactly one teleport without being seen. So I also suggest to give the keeper its 3 moves back.

Edit|balancing:
I think the flame spitter is too weak comparing to the extractor:
+marksman
+3=~14% more damage on range
-no extract
-2 less hitpoints
-2=~28% less damage
The possibility of extract is a lot of more worthy than marksman. And it's just sure the rest won't balance the flamespitter's disadvantage of no extract. I suggest to increase the flamespitter's attack to 7-4 especially since my formula says, this unit's more than 10% too weak making you have to increase by more than 11%. With that and with decreasing the extractor's damage by, let's say, 1, they should be more equal in power.
Also, you can't use the scavenger seriously since they die after a dazzle either while attacking or while the enemy's turn. I suggest to increase the defences a little bit.

Edit:
The robots haven't got any serious swimmer.
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Drakefriend
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by Drakefriend »

The poor seal!
After far too long an absence, I have returned.
According to the quiz 100% Silver Mage (85% Archmage, 75% Shyde, 67% Flameheart and Ancient Wose,58% Assassin, Troll Warrior and Berserker). And my top score is exactly how I see myself.
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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by lindsay40k »

It seems to me like it's very difficult to put the Scavengers to good use. I would suggest changing Dazzle to reduce enemy accuracy by one stage of 10%, and have it remain in play as per Slows. Originally, the Scavvies were a helpful support unit; now, they're of no use in a support role, and difficult to keep alive long enough to level up. If they get made a little more robust, then I would hope they should fulfil the 'swimmer' role that's somewhat lacking at present.

edit: first two robot sprite design uploaded!

Image

First thing I put together was this Scavenger sprite. I'm going to be editing it to make it make it more similar in style to the Battle Bot sprite. It will remain looking a bit dim and tame; most of the 'bots will have aggressive faces like the one below, but some of them - the more ancillary 'support' bots that aren't geared for brutal frontline combat - will have this kind of passive looking face.

Image

The Battle Bot sprite came some time after the Scavenger. It went through several revisions until I came up with a design that looked 'bulky' enough; the refinement of the design led to the level of detail being greater than the Scavvie, which will be redrawn to sit well next to this. The original is made up of many layers, which will make it a breeze to modify it to a basis for the Gun line and to make evolutions for both lines.

Now, I started off aiming just to get the bodily proportions looking good and the general size fitting in with the rest of Wesnoth... I'd like to see these sprites in action, if that'd be possible, so I can see how well they sit next to the default art. I'm also planning to replace the 'brushed steel' colour scheme with dirty and corroded brass, bronze, iron and wood, so as to fit the faction's tech level and provide more visual contrast. Main point I'm concerned about is how convincingly they appear to be using steam power; I've tried to give the legs a hydraulic look, with pistons and tubing all over the place, and when I've seen how they look on a map I'll draw some (animated?) translucent smoke to come out of the stacks.

Ultimately, the plan is to get some animations drawn for them all; weapon thrusts, deaths, walking, and a 'standing' animation. I'm expecting that the piston tech will be a lot more recognisable when they are moving. Instead of the occasional 'idle' animation common to Wesnoth art (such as the Saurians catching fish), I'm thinking of an Advance Wars style ongoing animation:

http://www.youtube.com/v/fDkufO94fsw

I feel a rhythmic, ongoing bobbing of their heads and limbs will make the robots look more like automata than if they were to occasionally 'fidget'.
currently contributing art to Internet Meme Era
fog_of_gold
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by fog_of_gold »

Your two pictures are beautyful.
I don't think it's a good idea to give the scavenger the swimmer role since they're nearly doing no damage. But if you keep the idea of setting the CTH to 50% and change the movement costs of as many as possible units in water to 1, we'd have a swimming faction: The scavengers would make, if they are balanced, the other robots be swimmers since with the dazzle, they make your robots have 50% defence and that even in water. To explain they may move in water, you can imagine/say, they don't need to breath and therefore don't contain any sort of gas so they are heavy and therefore may submerge. Then of course, it would make sense to give submerge. It would be like the undeads which are described that way, too.
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Araja
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by Araja »

fog_of_gold wrote:and change the movement costs of as many as possible units in water to 1
You're kidding, right? Water tends to play a big part in Wesnoth maps, acting as a border, no man's land, choke point, buffer zone, etc. A faction where "as many units as possible" are completely amphibious sounds like a rookie mistake.

I may be totally misguided here, but that part of the post set of alarm bells for me.
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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by lindsay40k »

Thanks for the approval of the designs, fog.

RE water movement. I'm quite against any land-based steambot having anything other than poor shallow water movement and no deep water movement. If they submerge, their boilers are extinguished.

Scavenger line being water-capable makes sense to me. They're like primitive cel-powered machines, so they could be made sealed and thus be capable of seabed-walking. Right now I agree that they are under-powered, but given some buffing I think they could do it - I've had Centipedes perform OK when I've been able to level them up.

'Walkers' (Battle Bot, Gun line) being slow waders with poor water defence is okay by me; they'll be taking things very slowly, as their great weight combined with the threat of being extinguished would force them to be very careful.

Wheeled units really shouldn't be going for a dip at all. Tracked units... I dunno, I suppose they could be slow waders, to represent their ability to cross ditches... any WWI buffs able to comment on how the early Tanks fared with deep mud, flooded craters and rivers?

I'm still open to the idea of a robo-boat - maybe with a big steamboat wheel? - that can evolve into a 'sewer skater' that can 'teleport' through presumed underground tunnels and poison spray with foul liquids, or an ironclad-type fighting vessel.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by Dixie »

The sprites are nice, good job! Although if I had a generic comment: it took me some time to figure out the battle bot's arms. I eventually saw something sticking outta its head, and since I know the units, figured it was the chainsaw, and then spotted the drill arm. And the chainsaw still looks weird to anyone who doesn't assume it's on a hidden arm. If you want real art criticism, though, the better option would be to have a post in the art section. I had started one some time ago (it was upped this very week!), or you can creatr your own if you prefer. Either way, I won't have much time to include them tomorrow, sadly, even though it's a triffle, really, but they should be in there by monday night at the latest.

I'm not convinced about the water thing either, although I think Araja and Lindsay understood it wrong: you meant for a unit beginning its turn next to a scavenger to have 1 move cost on water and submerge, right? Not sure I want this anyway, though. I'm not forcibly against including an ironclad-type water defender for the faction, tough. Maybe one more level-up for the tanks? Or possibly it's own unit, which would be more relevant in MP matches?

Appart from that: I haven't really played the bots at all yet, so I,ll trust you on the balance. a universal 50% def isn't enough for Dazzle, in your opinion? Most bots get about 30-40% def in most terrains (maybe some 50%) so it looked like a nice terrain ignoring bonus to me. Maybe we should just remove their weaknesses? Or boost their HPs? Or lower their XP requirements? Or boost Dazzle, I guess. (I'm trying to think of some other support ability they could use, but it doesn't come to mind). Maybe just a -10% acy penalty would do it better, as you suggest. Or give it more strikes, so it has more chances to actually inflict the status? Both?

While were at it, do you guys feel the bots resistances are too low on average? I wanted to be though cookies, and they're softer than dwarves. Maybe we should up all their average physical def to 20%, maybe even 30% (seeing how they're undefended, if not outright weak against arcane/cold/fire attacks)? Would they have too much HPs in that case? But would it be more flavourable? I'm thinking 'bout it, anyway.
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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by lindsay40k »

Whilst I was already planning to modify the Battle Bot sprite for the reasons mentioned, I would like to see the two of them running in game so as to get an idea of scale. I've not designed a whole sprite set before, and it'd help greatly to be able to get a visual cue on where to take things.

I think we can afford to raise their physical def. Right now, they do feel a bit brittle - especially since they're not good at taking advantage of terrain.

The Scavenger really need something doing. I stand by my suggestion to try making Dazzle reduce accuracy and remain in play like Slows; given the unit's high defences, capping accuracy at 50% really achieves little and not having it remain in play makes the unit nigh on useless as a support unit. Also, the Forager is a bit flimsy, too - it seems to die pretty easily to two enemy units. Reducing XP requirements might make the Scavenger more viable, but as it I'm reluctant to choose a Forager upon levelling up - my legion of Oilers keep me well funded, especially since I buy a lot of them. They are a low price investment (taking into account their effectively free upkeep), and no matter my opponent I can be sure of being able to level them up into something useful.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by Dixie »

Ok, so I up-loaded some corrections for the era on the add-on server:

- New sprites (some cowboys by Dipsey, bots by lindsay)
- Upped the Forager's HPs to 32 and gave it Marksman on its ranged attack.
- Upped the faction's average resistances.
- Changed slow so it does -10% acy instead of max 50%.

By the way, it already is applied and removed like slow: one turn later or upon levelling... No? Do you feel like it works differently (your last post seemed like you think you do).

Also, if you ever feel like testing your sprites in game again in the future, you can change them by going in "~add-ons/Internet_Meme_Era/images/robots", rename your sprites so they match the actual file names and replace. I don't mind doing it for you, but it'll probably prove shorter and less bothersome for you in the long run :)

Oh, while I'm thinking about it: your sprites could probably use a bit of TC (team colour). At least the eyes, and whatever other part you think could look nice in TC. I've attached the palette to my post, so you can use those magentas. They'll be replaced with the right TC in game.

Appart from that, I know there's still much work to be put on various stuff (scroll_to for Extract, play-test and balance the bots and cowboys, work on sprites, design plants and redesign pirates, etc.) but right now I'm quite busy with some transcriptions and practices I have to do for an upcoming show. So, the era ain't exactly my priority right now, as you'll surely understand. I'll still be lurking around the thread for comments, anyway, so no problem, keep up the good work if you can afford to :)

By the way, I think I'll take fog's comment about the era's name into account for now: I won't change it, but I'll consider it for a future, more finished version. I thought maybe something like "Out Of Wesnoth Era" could be nice. I like it better than "Stereotypes Era" and such, anyway...
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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by lindsay40k »

Aha, now what gave me the impression that Dazzle wasn't RIP (remains in play) was that I didn't see a 'Dazzled' status icon on the affected unit's stats - plus . Unless there's a 'Dazzled' icon I'm missing, we could do with having some sort of signifier.

Thanks for the advice, I was planning on making the eyes the main player colour part and was going to ask about that. I've pretty much got all I need to be working on my part here, seems it's just a case of tweaking things to near perfection from here on out.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.4

Post by Dixie »

Well, bad news, people... my show's been called off. Huh. And I had already transcribed about 35+ songs already, too. Darn. Well, gives me time to get back on the era right away, I guess.
lindsay40k wrote:Aha, now what gave me the impression that Dazzle wasn't RIP (remains in play) was that I didn't see a 'Dazzled' status icon on the affected unit's stats - plus . Unless there's a 'Dazzled' icon I'm missing, we could do with having some sort of signifier.
Well, I -suppose- this could be possible through some sort of obscure interface action that I'm not really aware about, but I'm not sure I'd like to go all the way toward doing it. I honnestly thought having the affected unit's sprite all whitish and having the "Dazzled" weapon special on all attacks would be a dead give-away.

Anyway, I'm gonna try and fix that scroll_to thing and play with bots and cowboys for a bit to try and determine some kind of balance. Maybe I'm gonna restart working on some ninja sprites, eventually.

EDIT:
Some comments on your bot sprites after having seen them in game:

- They're a bit big, especially the battle bot. I fear to imagine it's lv3! You could keep him as a lv3 battle bot, though, but the lv1 should probably be smaller. I think the sprites should fit in a 72x72 square, I don't know if that's what you did. Scavenger isn't so bad size-wise, but I suppose it could be a tiny bit smaller, if all the bots are gonna be smaller, so it's clear it's a weak lv0.
- Your shades of grey are a bit pale, IMO. They look like if they were dazzled by default and detonate a bit compared to terrains and other sprites.
- An idea for your 4-legged battle bots: maybe they could have a robotic torso mounted on the 4-leg base. They'd look more-human (maybe you're trying to avoid this? I dunno) but it would help make the chainsaw/drill arms more distinguishable. In the end, it's your choice, though :)

EDIT:
I also noticed my new -105 acy dazzle didn't work. And I,ve thought about it, and I'm not sure I like it anyway, so I'll probably revert to my first cap-at-50% dazzle. Sure, as far as scavengers are concerned, this dazzle is useless, but for other bots, the highest defense they can achieve is 50%, so it's basically a terrain-ignoring thing for them. If play-testing proves it is really insufficient to justify the scavengers/foragers worth, I'll consider upping it to max 40% cth, which is better then any bots, save the scavenger and level ups, can hope to achieve. I'm also considering boosting scavenger/forager melee attack, maybe to something like 2-3 (scav) and 3-4 (for). Steal would of course not be influenced.

I am also concerned about the bots being too alike to undeads: they have slightly less resistance against impact, and a weakness to fire. So I don,t really know, either I lower the physical resistances by 10% and flush the fire weakness, either I switch it to cold weakness... But then, bots vs bots could be a very long and boring match-up: the oiler was to be the main anti-bot, and they have somewhat plentyfull fire attacks... This needs more thought.
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Current projects: Internet meme Era, The Settlers of Wesnoth
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.5

Post by Dixie »

So, an update on the situation:

While I have done no progress code-wise since last time, the pirates' design has continued been worked on in my head. I want them to be a generally aggressive faction, but rather through quality units then through quantity like the triffids. Right now, I am considering:

- Replacing the monkey with a vigil pirate, armed with torch, and maybe saber. It'll level in either landlubber (better land scouting capabilities) or swimmer (sea-scouting, different weapons).
- I am considering adding some mechanical ship line of unit. No details thought out yet.
- I think the lv2 cannoneer which branches off the Scallywag will be replaced by a pirate with a "tromblon" (couldn,t find the english word for this). You know, these big old guns with the trumpet-like cannon that shoot tons of bullets and sharpnels? I think this weapon could simultaneously attack the target and the two units directly next to hit. Ideally, each unit would get its own defense and would not depend on the main target being hit or not.
- But I can't flush the cannons! So there would be a new lv1 cannoneer unit with only one level up (no lv3 for this one), he would get a ranged cannonball attack, which would be something like 15-1 impact with double damage on mechanical units (to sink ships, and also to give the pirates a weapon vs the bots), and another ranged attack similar to the "tromblon". Or maybe more like the actual grape shot. Both would be available only on offense. Maybe the cannoneer would get a weak saber melee attack, but maybe not.
- I am still thinking of a slaver unit, which could recruit slaves when standing on villages, to a max of 2-3 slaves per slavers owned. Slaves would run away (vanish, or maybe convert to an enemy AI side if possible, which I doubt) when not next to a pirate unit of the same side, or stolen if next to an enemy slaver but not next to a slaver of same side. Or an enemy slaver of higher level. Slavers would only get to level 2 and would be below average, but get slave leadership. Maybe they could inflict damage on adjacent slaves of the same side at each turn start to represent whipping. Slaves could come in 3 random lv0 kinds:
1) black slaves, with a melee club attack and half-decent tank capabilities, they would level into lv1 black slaves with better stats;
2) native (indian) slaves, frailer, with weaker spear melee and ok blowgun ranged attacks, would level into lv1 native slaves with better stats;
3) white convicts, with sabers, that can level to a lv0 sailor, which can in turn level into any lv1 pirate unit (except the ship, of course).
Since slaves are basically free and cost no upkeep (until they lv), slavers need to be relatively expensive for their below-average stats, and damage inflicting to slaves at each turn can also help balance that.

Also, as far as real work on the era goes, I have started getting back on the sprites, starting with the ninjas. I haven't much done so far, but I am relatively satisfied of the result, so I'll continue in that branch until I'm sick of it, to give time for code ideas to flourish, which I can then work on until I'm sick of it, and alternate art and code likewise until we've got a somewhat complete thing. Much work ahead, guys! :)
Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny - Frank Zappa
Current projects: Internet meme Era, The Settlers of Wesnoth
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