Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Zerovirus » August 5th, 2009, 2:32 pm

wesfreak wrote:oh. i'm on 1.6.

what you just suggested is possible, but i don't know enough wml to do it, just the basics.

don't make every lvl up advance an official lvl. do what they did for kaleh of the queenoth elves and make it 2 for every lvl.

maybe it should be a 2 damage upgrade?


That's what I meant. 2 damage might be a bit much but I'm not sure because we don't really have beta testers right now...

Maybe you should also download the 1.7 version so that you have both versions?
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby melinath » August 5th, 2009, 4:06 pm

Turuk wrote:No. Think about it. If the image is one of the custom images that comes in your add-on, and the player has not downloaded it yet, how would their computer be able to find the image to display it to them when they look at your add-on on the add-on server?

You could make it part of downloading the add-ons list. You just download the icon along with it. But that would take waaay too much bandwidth.

Zero: The new unit sounds fine and is easy to code. I'll get to it as soon as I can.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Zerovirus » August 5th, 2009, 4:11 pm

When you do the update (I haven't made the unit graphic for the Sentient yet) could you redo the melee animations using my newest attack graphics from my sprite thread and make it so that the unit switches to that graphic and charges the enemy like most Mainline melee animations do? I'm having trouble telling which units are fighting and what attacks they're using due to the lack of graphical difference between melee and ranged attacks.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Turuk » August 5th, 2009, 7:24 pm

melinath wrote:
Turuk wrote:No. Think about it. If the image is one of the custom images that comes in your add-on, and the player has not downloaded it yet, how would their computer be able to find the image to display it to them when they look at your add-on on the add-on server?

You could make it part of downloading the add-ons list. You just download the icon along with it. But that would take waaay too much bandwidth.


I made my first response too long. There's no need to reason as to why it should be or try to find a way around it. Just no.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Zerovirus » August 5th, 2009, 7:27 pm

Turuk wrote:
melinath wrote:
Turuk wrote:No. Think about it. If the image is one of the custom images that comes in your add-on, and the player has not downloaded it yet, how would their computer be able to find the image to display it to them when they look at your add-on on the add-on server?

You could make it part of downloading the add-ons list. You just download the icon along with it. But that would take waaay too much bandwidth.


I made my first response too long. There's no need to reason as to why it should be or try to find a way around it. Just no.


And that apparently closes the discussion. I suppose it's back on topic now.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby melinath » August 5th, 2009, 7:36 pm

Zerovirus wrote:Wow, love the naming system you came up with. It was actually similar to what I was planning.

The names are mostly just a placeholder... you can change it to whatever you'd like, or add names, or w/e. It's macros/names.cfg.

Zerovirus wrote:ONE LAST EDIT PLZ:
Make the Cybercone's Battery Pulse a move that he can use to attack... Stupid AI tries to attack with a Cybercone and gets owned. If it can't attack it's just an Amniote that has leadership.


The cybercone doesn't have a battery pulse attack or defense...

Oh, and about the new units: I'll code them once there are graphics. ;-) New version should be up soon.

...and lastly, I feel silly: I've forgotten what the electric attack is supposed to do and I can't find it for some reason. Could you remind me, Zero?

EDIT:: Edited away a terrible typo I am ashamed ever to have made.
Last edited by melinath on August 8th, 2009, 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Zerovirus » August 5th, 2009, 7:49 pm

Electric attacks halve the target's move points if they hit.

I'm pretty sure the Cybercore has a Battery Pulse. Just that it shows 0-0 on attack.

PLZ change the melee animations so that the units move. That's the primary thing I'm wanting now. That and the slight edits to the base unit images.

BTW the Steel Slasher has a stray pixel by one of its legs- pure white and it's supposed to be trans.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby melinath » August 5th, 2009, 9:18 pm

The last two issues were fixed in the latest update... I may have uploaded it after you posted, I'm not sure.

Zerovirus wrote:Electric attacks halve the target's move points if they hit.

Thanks!

Zerovirus wrote:I'm pretty sure the Cybercore has a Battery Pulse. Just that it shows 0-0 on attack.


Ah. Cybercore. I can make the cybercore have whatever you want, but keep in mind: the AI is eternally stupid. I'm surprised it's using the 0-0 attack; since it's a weapon special, it should be taken into account. But the bottom line is that the AI will always find a way to die, and the more complicated, strange things we do, the less able the AI will be to handle it. For example, it doesn't understand dummy abilities that trigger events. I would recommend not changing this until we can test with human players against human players.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Zerovirus » August 5th, 2009, 10:02 pm

Well, later, how about we set up a date? You versus me. We do a control of Steelhive v. Steelhive then maybe a Steelhive v. Random.

EDIT: I updated all my addons and it said it could not find any to update. I suppose this means you haven't uploaded it yet.

EDIT: Hmm, you did update. The slashers look a lot cooler now that they have an attack pose and movement.

EDIT: WTF?
Image

And, another glitch is that when you shift into a cybercone the image on the right stat bar is strangely crunched and skewed. I have a feeling this is due to the game stretching and crushing the size of the image to fit the frame, but why?

And, more things to put on top of your to do list:

Make Amniote upgrade XP 3, make his HP 35.
Make Choriote AMLA XP 12, make his HP 50.
Give every member of Oculus line the Dark Adept electric bolt projectile. I'm working on animations for the Oculus line's melee attacks, so be prepared to implement that whenever I finish.
You got lazy on the shadows of the Oculus lind, XD. I know that some of them are covered by the units, so I'll make separate files for the shadows or I'll compile them any way you need. Just don't keep using the Amniote and Choriote shadows for them.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby wesfreak » August 6th, 2009, 1:44 am

although i haven't played the game yet ( i plan to get 1.7 l8er ) i have a few possible reasons on why your faction might be weaker then others:

1. lack of damage types. from what i hear you only have blade and a bit of pierce. this would be a disadvantage against undead, dwarves, elves (woses) and loyalists (heavy infantry).

2. lack of roles. all factions have a fighter, archer and scout, and at least one of the following: brute, thief (with skirmish/backstab/poison+good def everywhere), mage, healer and suicidal (beserk/charge)

3. few damage dealers: the way i see it you only have 2 damage dealers: your fighters and archers (forgot real terms). even the fodder for other factions does some damage.

4. they are just bad in damage, hp, resists or defense.

hope this helped.

also: a campaign i know has a similar idea to this ( a hive master, drones, the like.) only their units are half organic and half mechanical. i could show you some of the units so that you could have some balanced guy, or maybe some new sprites.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby melinath » August 6th, 2009, 2:10 am

wesfreak: Thanks for the notes. I'm just being a codemonkey atm. Zerovirus's call.

Zerovirus: I'm not sure what causes the squashing glitch, though it's obviously related somehow to the fact that the unit is oversized. When "I fiddle with the submerging animation numbers, I might take it back down to 72x72... but i don't really know for sure what the problem is.

I have no idea what the WTF is supposed to show me... :-p

Zerovirus wrote:Make Amniote upgrade XP 3, make his HP 35.
Make Choriote AMLA XP 12, make his HP 50.
Give every member of Oculus line the Dark Adept electric bolt projectile. I'm working on animations for the Oculus line's melee attacks, so be prepared to implement that whenever I finish.


Aye, aye! I also need to fiddle with the submerge height on the flying units a bit more. Will do this stuff tomorrow.

Zerovirus wrote:You got lazy on the shadows of the Oculus lind, XD. I know that some of them are covered by the units, so I'll make separate files for the shadows or I'll compile them any way you need. Just don't keep using the Amniote and Choriote shadows for them.

Actually... I didn't get lazy. Changing the colors of oddly-shaped shadows is just as easy as changing the shadows on the circular ones. I was trying (and possibly failing) to follow TSI's advice.
thespaceinvader wrote:
melinath wrote:Getting the shadows transparent is easy for me to do. But if you have time and work on the sprites a bit more, could you change the bg color to something like green that isn't in any of the sprites? That would make it easier for me. Also, the shadows should be a slightly different color and pointing northwest.

Actually, circular shadows should be directly under the unit, and be flattened vertically as those are (though somethign a little more elliptical would be good) check out the recent flying units (the Drakes that have been committed recently) to see how to work them.

If you'd rather have the more shaped shadows, we can do that instead. It'd be great if they could be a bit farther down, though. Oh, and the vorpal attack you posted didn't have a shadow...

EDIT::
Play date sounds good. Name a time before 7pm EST.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Zerovirus » August 6th, 2009, 11:56 am

EST? *groans* So that's 2 hours ahead of Central Time. It's at times like this that I wish the world were flat, like Wesnoth.

Anyways let me check my clock. Mind you I've never played a single online match so get ready to totally pwn me.

Okay, right now it's 6:00 AM where I am and 8:00 AM where you are apparently... How about we go at 11:00 AM my time and 1:00 PM your time? Today, if you get on and read this before 1:00 PM. If you're not on before that we can set it to tomorrow or something.

Oh, and every time I try to join the online server it tells me that I have 1.7.1 while I need 1.7.3+; I'm not sure what this means because I'm pretty sure the latest version is 1.7.2.

The WTF is because every time the Steel Bladewhirler attacks a vertical hex, above or below, it leaves behind those marks on the adjacent hexes.The hexes adjacent to both attacker and defender have these vertical marks on their edges; is the Bladewhirler's attack animation not working properly?

I'll fiddle with the shadows a bit more. I was just lazy on the final vorpal attack shadow...

EDIT:

@ Wesfreak:

Lack of damage types... Maybe. I'm not exactly the most skilled player so I often don't know how much omitting a certain detail affects gameplay... We should probably add some damage types in. In fact, Melinath, make all the electric attacks Fire damage, like he suggested.

Lack of roles... I have a fighter, the Slasher line. I have archers... Of an underpowered sort compared to other archers, but sure, the Oculus line. I'm working on Scout graphics... I'm not sure about the Brute or Thief, but I'm thinking I'll make the Scout fit the thief and maybe make the Hivequeen fit the Brute. Mage... No idea. Maybe I could manage to make the Steel Sentient a Mage with a bit of stat modification... Healer... Well obviously the planned Steel Welder=> Steel Repairer is the healer. Suicidal is kinda folded into the Slasher line with the bladewhirler. On that note, Melinath, reduce the Bladewhirler's AMLA by maybe, 4 or 5 points depending on how you see fit. I want more full heals for those nutjobs.

And the final bit, bad in attacks and defenses and pretty much everything, well, I'm not going to do what a lot of other people do and make them overpowered at the very beginning and slowly tone them down. I'm going to make them a bit underpowered and slowly tone them up. More controllable that way, you see. I'm sure we can get a balanced faction out in time for the final release, whenever that happens.

Yes, I've heard of the campaign. IftU, right? The shaxthal are really cool but they're a bit more on the "organic" side than most of my units barring the Hivequeen.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Shawer » August 6th, 2009, 12:09 pm

Ill test the faction a bit if you want :)
But im busy this week, tell you my findings when i find the time :)
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby Zerovirus » August 6th, 2009, 12:25 pm

Cool, thanks for the help. Yes, I know the actual combat units are way underpowered. I'm hoping you guys can tell me if the various support units like Cybercone, Lightshifter, and Amniote are of any use in real gameplay.
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Re: Steelhive Faction feedback/balancing

Postby wesfreak » August 6th, 2009, 1:11 pm

you don't need a mage, not every class is necessary. orcs don't have mages, after all.

You say your archers aren't very good. what do you mean?

swam+ beserk is an interesting idea, but i don't really like it because it would make the unit weaker. you might wanna give that guy drain maybe,to compensate for the swarm.

i think that could also be a problem: you use very low xp. levels to compensate for overall weakness, so that your units will get full heals every once in a while. I don't think that's how wesnoth is supposed 2 work. when i test it, i'll decide if it's a problem.
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