Ascension - These units go up to level 5 - PR5 is out

[ancestral]

They aren't recruitable in default multiplayer (see: http://www.wesnoth.org/units/trunk/C/era_default.html)

I'm aware of that, but neither are levels 4 and 5, so I wasn't aware your era was so constricted.

Level 4 units aren't recruitable in default multiplayer. Even level 3 units aren't. This era isn't about recruiting higher level units.

Adding new level 0 units or introducing level 0 units from mainline would require too much balancing.

I hope you see the irony in this statement given the scope of your project.

There is a huge difference between balancing level 0 units which could become rampant in play early on and even throughout the game versus higher level units which are rare and can only be leveled to even get there.

94% of the new units here are levels 3 or greater. I'd say regular multiplayer games with level 3 units or higher are rarer. It depends of course on the game, but most games do not get to that point. A heroic version may be different, and I'm aware of that. It's not to say that's an excuse not to create balanced units, but it is to say that if I don't properly balance new units the effects will be less dramatic.

If I were to spend effort into adding level 0 units, keep in mind since they are recruitable at the beginning of the game I'd have to worry about things like fine-tuning XP costs in order to fit them into the existing tree and establish precise gold costs. One point of extra damage from an attack on a level 0 is way more important than one point of extra damage dealt from a level 3 or 4 unit. 1 gold difference in a unit cost could radically change the dynamics of recruiting units in the short term.

So I disagree, there is no irony. Adding level 0's and making them balanced into the existing default multiplayer would be nothing short of a nightmare.

[Turuk]

If I were to spend effort into adding level 0 units, keep in mind since they are recruitable at the beginning of the game I'd have to worry about things like fine-tuning XP costs in order to fit them into the existing tree and establish precise gold costs. One point of extra damage from an attack on a level 0 is way more important than one point of extra damage dealt from a level 3 or 4 unit. 1 gold difference in a unit cost could radically change the dynamics of recruiting units in the short term.

So I disagree, there is no irony. Adding level 0's and making them balanced into the existing default multiplayer would be nothing short of a nightmare.

I wasn't claiming you had to introduce new level 0's for every single line, just that you could include the 3 existing level 0's into them. My point about the balance is that this era currently, as planned by you, has a classic and heroic mode with only the level 1s or 2s being able to be recruited...

So, if, as you pointed out, in the course of a normal multiplayer game you rarely if ever get to level 3, then obviously this era is going to be used elsewhere. I was assuming it would be used outside of an environment where it had to be perfectly balanced (such as a campaign or mp scenario or some such), as using your era would not suddenly allow everyone to level that much faster.

[Aethaeryn]

If I were to spend effort into adding level 0 units, keep in mind since they are recruitable at the beginning of the game I'd have to worry about things like fine-tuning XP costs in order to fit them into the existing tree and establish precise gold costs. One point of extra damage from an attack on a level 0 is way more important than one point of extra damage dealt from a level 3 or 4 unit. 1 gold difference in a unit cost could radically change the dynamics of recruiting units in the short term.

So I disagree, there is no irony. Adding level 0's and making them balanced into the existing default multiplayer would be nothing short of a nightmare.

You don't have to add the lvl 0s to the recruit lists if you add them, just have them as a resource and possibly have an extra-challenge era where you start as the lvl 0s.

[ancestral]

So, if, as you pointed out, in the course of a normal multiplayer game you rarely if ever get to level 3, then obviously this era is going to be used elsewhere. I was assuming it would be used outside of an environment where it had to be perfectly balanced (such as a campaign or mp scenario or some such), as using your era would not suddenly allow everyone to level that much faster.

To be honest, I don't know exactly how this is going to be used, and that's kind of exciting We'll see how this era evolves over time. Maybe people will want level 0 units added or other unit trees placed from mainline. Or maybe they'll want something else entirely. The best thing is to get this in the hands of the players and gather feedback.

[Turuk]

So, uh, if you have absolutely no idea how it's going to be employed, how can you decide what can and cannot go into it to benefit it the most in the future?

[ancestral]

So, uh, if you have absolutely no idea how it's going to be employed, how can you decide what can and cannot go into it to benefit it the most in the future?

I explained my goal of the era and what I want to accomplish so I have that, but I can't accurately predict how people will use it or even what they'll like about it and what they won't. I'm hoping people will use it anywhere in place of the default multiplayer, but we'll see. There's so many high level units now there could be custom maps integrating these baddies in different ways that I could only guess.

[Aethaeryn]

So, uh, if you have absolutely no idea how it's going to be employed, how can you decide what can and cannot go into it to benefit it the most in the future?

I explained my goal of the era and what I want to accomplish so I have that, but I can't accurately predict how people will use it or even what they'll like about it and what they won't. I'm hoping people will use it anywhere in place of the default multiplayer, but we'll see. There's so many high level units now there could be custom maps integrating these baddies in different ways that I could only guess.

Survivals definitely could use some as enemies late in the game (and I mean maps like the mainline 6p Team Survival, not Survival Xtreme, but I'm sure the latter could use it too).

[NoName]

I think that the new high-level units needs to have new attacks, and for some, new abilities, not just more stats. And why is the xp to level up all 150?

And for specifics:
Saurians- damage are too low for their levels. Also, give striker and guerilla ambush.
Dwarven Skylord/Skycaptain/Skymarshal- What about 3 strikes? and change the names into D. Skywarrior->D. Skycaptain->D. Skylord
Vigilante/Revolutianry- what about giving it 3 melee strikes?
Forest Warden/BEastmaster- needs more dmg, and probably ambush. The beastmaster also needs a "beast attack" attack.
Predator/Orion- 5 strikes?
Bounty Hunter- melee poison.
Grenadier- i dont think it has grenades. what about Javelin Master? also needs 3 ranged strikes maybe.
Immortal- change the name
Armor Mauler/Juggernaut- 3 strikes?
Orc Prowler/Infiltrator/Royal Assasin- more ranged dmg and strikes. and Royal seems really strange for an orc.
Orc Commander/General- name change. (seems weird for orcs)
Naga Eternal- name change...
Goblins- I dont think they need level 5s. I think they should end at lv3.

I am totally waiting for this era! sounds good...

[Turuk]

And why is the xp to level up all 150?

I believe he said it somewhere, but the 150 experience for levels 3-5 is only a placeholder until he works out different numbers.

[ancestral]

Rebels
Having a great mix of both melee and ranged attacks, the Rebels and in particular the Elves proved to be fun to extend. Also note the use of "Elven" in place of "Elvish;" again, this stylistic choice is chosen partially as an indicator that the era is not the default multiplayer.

Also of note, the mage line is noticeably absent. It was purposefully omitted as it was already chronicled in the Loyalists faction.




With emphasis on powerful, precise archery, this line of units changes little over time. The Elven Bowmaster has greater damage while the Elven Sniper increases damage and ranged attack by one.



The Ranger, a more balanced melee and ranged attacker with a stealthy, ambush ability, escalates its damage through the Elven Tactician and Elven Campaigner.



The Captain line, the leader unit of the faction, promotes to the Grand Marshal and Imperial with steadily increasing damage totals.



The Elven Hero line, perhaps the most balanced Elven unit of straight up ranged and attack fighter with no secondary abilities transitions into the level 4 Elven Conqueror and level 5 Elven Legend.



The factions speediest unit, the Scout adds speed as it levels, the Elven Charger goes to 11 and the Elven Crusader adds an extra attack on top.



Borrowing a page from Under the Burning Sun the level 4 introduces the Elven Star which adds illumination to the slowly rising attacks and the Elven Hierophant completes the line.



If the Elven Sylph is considered the spirit of the forest then the Elven Avatar is the personification of nature and guardian of the forests.



The net-centric Merman Entangler transitions to the slightly more agile Ensnarer and Retiarius.



The spearman line, proficient with ranged spear-throwing, complements the existing units by using the Merman Missiler and the elite Merman Harpooner.



The enigmatic Wose, fantastic beings where age is power, grows into the seldom seen Legendary Wose and into the even rarer Mythic Wose.



Next: Undead

[Wajimba]

Normally I would read a whole thread through before making comments on it, but this thing is 4 pages long and I already have a lot of ideas- so I'll throw them out at the risk of them already being said once I read to page 4.

It's hard to best a Master Bowman. He has already mastered the arts of archery, so what can be next? Well, history tells us of the arbalest, a bow-like weapon more powerful than previous technology. Hence, the Arbalestier and Master Arbalestier.

I like composite bowman much better than arbalestier. (Use with orcish crossbowman?) With long names like Master Composite Bowman, one thing to think about is that there is only so much width to the name area. I suppose you could throw a newline character [return carriage] in there and make it wrap around.

edit: I'm just going to keep adding to this post as I keep reading so I don't pentapost

also, don't through away balance! if a unit only goes to lvl 2, make his tree only go to lvl 4.

There is actually some value here. While I agree with your (Ancestral's) comment on the old Pentasomething wiki page about the few original level 4 units being somewhat random, I don't think it was entirely so. One inherent distinguishing characteristic between units is how far they can level up. If you take that away by making them all go to 5, you lose something. Maybe the really weak units only go to 4 like wesfreak said. I always viewed each level as being fairly comparable regardless of the unit's race or type (i.e. mage or fighter). Taking whatever unit to the next level if you will. As you have it lined up now, some level 5 units are drastically stronger than others. Take Dwarven Skymarshal vs say Drake Conqueror. I know that one is a scout unit and another is an all-out pwner, but they just don't seem to be on the same level to me. Maybe I just need to view the units strengths in a more proper context, but it seems like the higher levels before were reserved for the really strong units. I don't know if there is any way to preserve this in a "These units go to 5" addon, but that I'm picking up on.

Why not Mage of Radiance -> Mage of Brilliance? imho, they sound slightly better.

Imho as well.

I still say this guy should be Silver Mage -> Ether Mage -> Void Mage.

I'm looking on the official unit tree site right now and I can't see any reference to void anything. However, there are some interesting things it talks about, so I'm including it here.

The many paths that a mage can take in study lead to strikingly different ends. Often viewed as sages, or wandering mystics, silver magi act under an agenda which is obscure even to their own colleagues. Though helpful to the magisteriums which often employ them in the field, they remain somewhat aloof.

They have, in fact, their own order amongst the ranks of magi, an order which withholds certain secrets from their peers. One of these is an apparent ability to cross great distances, faster than one could possibly travel on foot. Members of the silver order ardently refuse to discuss the workings of this with any of their fellow magi, and on those rare occasions when others have pried into their work, they have abandoned the endeavor, never to speak of it again.

Silver magi are often more physically adept than other magi, and their skills are of undeniable use on the battlefield, if one can manage to induce the mage to apply them.

Special Notes: Silver Magi are well-attuned to their magical natures and are highly resistant to non-physical damage.

The things that stand out to me are:
...they remain somewhat aloof...
...They have...their own order...the silver order...
This makes me think there is something special about silver that should be retained, although the unit originally ended at lvl3- so to take it to 5 would warrant a simple wording change as to which adjective is picked to describe the order. Your call Ancestral if you want to be absolutely true to the original MP, or if you want to improve where it makes sense (which was the whole premise behind Ascension right? (and all of open source for that matter)).
...when others have pried into their work, they have abandoned the endeavor, never to speak of it again...
Sounds æthereal to me. (Does Wesnoth even have support for the æ character?) The unit description agrees with the definition of æthereal on dictionary.com
Void and teleportation go very well together for me. Maybe that's because I read the Ender's Game series and that's how they did teleportation in that book.
...Silver magi are often more physically adept than other magi...
Might warrant another staff attack instead of just boost to damage.
So, imho Æthereal and Void Mages are better than Platinum and Diamond. You could still justify not going the route of precious metals even though the order is silver just because they are so singly secretive.

Quoting: whoever. A bunch of people by now.
Grenadier = lame. Heavy Spearman?

Heavy Javelineer->Peltast->Velite

Very good research. I think it's hilarious that this is again Greek->Roman. I actually like it because that's how it happened in history. Plus if you do it twice it will reinforce that it wasn't on accident.

Orcish Slurbowman just sounds silly to me. Normal two word composites sound cool, but something about this three worder doesn't sit right with me. Slurbow actually sounded ok to me- at least better than Slurbowman. I don't even know where to emphasize that word.

Good job with the Orcish Assassin line.

I think Naga Eternal would sound better at lvl5 than a Roman army captain. Centurion fits nicely as lvl4 though.

The trolls look hilarious wearing pink!
Having a halfways decent recruitable leader unit could create an intereresting new dynamic for the Northerners. It would be funny for him to be giving a leadership bonus to some lvl4 Orcish Commanders though. Could support a lvl4 roof for the weaker characters though because that's not what the unit was originally meant for.

...possibly have an extra-challenge era where you start as the lvl 0s...

That sounds good- you could just add Ken Oh's lvl0 work in and create the other era.

I like a lot of NoName's ideas- especially melee poison for Bounty Hunter. That plays to Wesfreak's idea of adding more than just damage/strikes.

[ancestral]

I like composite bowman much better than arbalestier. (Use with orcish crossbowman?) With long names like Master Composite Bowman, one thing to think about is that there is only so much width to the name area. I suppose you could throw a newline character [return carriage] in there and make it wrap around.

I'm glad you like Composite Bowman better, and yeah, I did use the Arbalestier with the Orcs.

That is true, the full name certainly wouldn't display well. To be honest, I'm still not 100% satisfied with the MCB, but it's the king for now. I'll still take input on possible name changes.


Oh yeah, I almost forgot I need to update my changes…

• Changed Radiant Mage to Mage of Radiance.
• Changed Brilliant Mage to Mage of Brilliance.
• Changed Javelineer line to Spearman → Javelineer → Peltast → Velite → Heavy Javelineer.
• Updated titles of Drake lines. From a thread in the [url=http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=26165]Writers' Forum.
• Various bug fixes.

[Wajimba]

It would be good if the first post contained all the images and text you have put out so far outlining the unit tree. That way people wouldn't have to sift through 4+ pages to get the whole thing.

[Aethaeryn]

It would be good if the first post contained all the images and text you have put out so far outlining the unit tree. That way people wouldn't have to sift through 4+ pages to get the whole thing.

You mean something like the current "The Entire Unit List So Far" but with images? (Yes, I know it's a bit outdated now.)

[ancestral]

It would be good if the first post contained all the images and text you have put out so far outlining the unit tree. That way people wouldn't have to sift through 4+ pages to get the whole thing.

You mean something like the current "The Entire Unit List So Far" but with images? (Yes, I know it's a bit outdated now.)

Working on it.