Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

It's not easy creating an entire faction or era. Post your work and collaborate in this forum.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
User avatar
wesfreak
Posts: 1020
Joined: October 28th, 2007, 1:11 pm
Location: in a land far far away

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by wesfreak » August 29th, 2009, 2:12 pm

you can still help with the descriptions, they're just in a different thread now(era of the future development). and you can playtest the dev. version that's listed on the development thread.

User avatar
Huston
Posts: 1070
Joined: April 29th, 2009, 8:26 pm
Location: Somewhere in this World(I Think)

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by Huston » August 30th, 2009, 3:27 am

i was just playing the welkin and they actually seem weaker than mainline units to me. i was playing them ina SX game and i had to power my level 2 welkin as much as i had to power up mainline level 1 units what should we do about this?

most of the level 2 welkin also have xp requirements equaling that of level 3 mainline elves.

User avatar
Xandria
Posts: 230
Joined: April 23rd, 2006, 5:10 pm
Location: Heart of Europe

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by Xandria » August 30th, 2009, 10:35 am

Well, just look at how the mainline factions were balanced, tossing a hitpoint or damage point back and forth.
The xp adjustments should be such that you actually can level up an unit in a classic 1v1 70% xp match. Most units have to kill 2-3 foes there if intelligent, 3-4 if not. Most often, units which find it easy to land final blows (mages, horsemen) will have a higher xp requirement.

Horsemen, that brings me to another point about the Welkin - they lack a big hitter, like a wose, or heavy infantry, and two of their fighting units (the guardians) are slow with speed 4, which makes it more difficult to concentrate fire.

The fire mage is their sole strong offensive unit.

A thought: let the Guardian of Day have dauntless (trait from the Windsong) so that he finds it easier to mount an assault, and let the Luna protector have counter (from the same faction) to retaliate slightly better.
Improving their speed may be worth considering, too - as they stand, they are too slow to cover mages afte they blast away some foe (perhaps the speed of one of them?). Also, taking 49 xp to level might be slightly too much (40 may be more appropriate).

Another thought: the faction's units are >all< expensive. They need to be better than their conterparts, because they will be facing a more numerous opposition, have no cheap village sitters&grabbers, etc. Many people who yell 'overpowered' consider units on a one-by-one basis. One has to consider their faction as a whole. The question is then: can the Welkin mount an offensive, gain some advantage, and lose less when their power phase is over? (As they are, they are likely to fall prey to an aggressive village grab, not being able to dislodge the foe from a village without losing the ones they had in the process).
The fight against human stupidity is endless, but we must never give it up.
- Jan Werich

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 3980
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by Pentarctagon » August 30th, 2009, 6:43 pm

the reason that the welkin are more expensive is that most of them have better dodge than their mainline counterparts (the flyer, flurry, star shooter, and moonlight glider have 50% on flat. the luna protector and GoD also have +10% (some times more) than the mainline faction's armored units on most terrain). as a faction, they also have all 6 attack types, which makes them rather versatile overall. they also have a heals +8/cures unit for 16 gold (the sage), which none of mainline units have at all.

i agree that the flurry could stand to have it's cost reduced.
However, the luna protector's lvl 2 form gets the steadfast ability, and counter+steadfast is a bit much imo.

also, i don't think any of the units take 49xp to lvl up :hmm: .
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
Xandria
Posts: 230
Joined: April 23rd, 2006, 5:10 pm
Location: Heart of Europe

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by Xandria » August 30th, 2009, 11:13 pm

Well, was just my $ 0.02 worth :)
Will have to play a bit with the Welkin to get a clearer image of them.
The fight against human stupidity is endless, but we must never give it up.
- Jan Werich

User avatar
wesfreak
Posts: 1020
Joined: October 28th, 2007, 1:11 pm
Location: in a land far far away

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by wesfreak » September 2nd, 2009, 5:12 pm

maybe we could make the g.o.d. a 2 hit tank, doing 11 or 12-2? for some variety and so that they get a heavy hitter.

also, i'm doing a playtest now and all 3 of my neophytes have strong. i thought they couldn't get it as a trait. what gives?

also, neophytes have 5 mp, pyrotations have 4, high pyrotations and their lvl ups have 4 and solar empreans get 6. why?

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 3980
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by Pentarctagon » September 2nd, 2009, 10:03 pm

having a heavy hitter seems a bit out of character for the welkin, who emphasize multiple strikes and good evasion.

the neophytes have strong because the code that would keep them from getting strong is not in the current version for some reason. also, the higher lvled forms of the neophyte have less mp because we while we agreed to give the neophyte 5 mp instead of 4, we forgot about the lvl2+ forms :roll: .
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
wesfreak
Posts: 1020
Joined: October 28th, 2007, 1:11 pm
Location: in a land far far away

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by wesfreak » March 13th, 2010, 6:54 pm

I'm back (thanks to march break) and since I can't be of much use in actual development because the developing version doesn't work for me, i've decided to make some balancing contributions to the welkin and brungar, which, while much better than before, still need some help. (arranged in spoilers because of length, for the longer ones). All of this is from the version on the add-on server, but I don't think it's been updated yet.
Sage line:
flurry line:
The high pyrotation has 78 hp, while the Hiearch of Aten has 60. I suggest 54 to match the arch mage damage. The cost of the lvl 3's should be changed to 59 like the arch mage for lvl 3's (from 79 for the high pyrotation and 81 for the solar emporean) and to 72 from 102 for the higharch of Aten to match the cost of the great mage.
star shooter line:
P.S: sorry for being a thread necro, but this is where the post should go, as it's not actually development.

User avatar
Mirion147
Posts: 888
Joined: February 14th, 2008, 12:52 am

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by Mirion147 » March 13th, 2010, 7:13 pm

wesfreak wrote:The battle sage could do a bit more ranged damage. I suggest increasing to 5-3. It's cost should probably also go down to 40. The battle seer loses heals+4 when it levels up. I don't know whether or not this is intentional, but reduction in power when leveling is bad. It's melee damage is a bit too high: i suggest moving it down to 9-4, so it's weaker than most fighter or archer lvl 3's This is because a part healer mixed unit shouldn't be as strong as a fighter. Cost should go down to 65 from 86, so it costs the same as a doyen.
Please note that it's called "battle sage" for a reason. It ceases to be a healing unit and becomes a fighter unit.

The elf sorceress doesn't have heal +4 but the shaman does, so losing heal +4 isn't so bad. And if I remember correctly I think it still retains it's curing ability.

How can you say that it's reducing in power when it's melee attack is too high..?
wesfreak wrote:It also does 6-5 melee damage, quite alot for a mage. I suggest 6-3, so it only does 4 more damage than the archmage melee.
Also it's using a Ice hammer, so it shouldn't do the same damage as an old mage with a staff. So it should be maybe not 6-5 but maybe 7-4 or 6-4.

And the Quickdraw should be better then any other level 2 archer in everything except melee since he has no melee attack.

I'm ok with everything else you mentioned. And glad to have you back :).
Don't know how to draw? Ask God. His canvas is all around you.
Take a look at the Era of the Future!
Current factions: The Welkin, The Brungar, and The Nordhris!
^This is old news lol but I don't care^

User avatar
wesfreak
Posts: 1020
Joined: October 28th, 2007, 1:11 pm
Location: in a land far far away

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by wesfreak » March 13th, 2010, 8:02 pm

Glad to be back. I was unsure about the entire battle sage line anyways, as there isn't any unit similar to it to compare to. The way it is now it's a fighter with cures. Now that I look at the elvish hero in comparison to it though, it seems o.k. as it is. (does less damage in both melee and ranged)

True that it's not using a staff, but i'm concerned more about overpowering then realism. Since it's damage is less than the arch mage though, i think 6-4 will be o.k.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 3980
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by Pentarctagon » March 13th, 2010, 8:06 pm

wow, been a while since anybody posted here lol.
@wesfreak: you could always just open the cfg files themselves and look at the stats there...
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
wesfreak
Posts: 1020
Joined: October 28th, 2007, 1:11 pm
Location: in a land far far away

Re: Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

Post by wesfreak » March 13th, 2010, 9:20 pm

I have. in theory and as individual units they are balanced. If I want to do anything else I have to test them in-game (like on a map with a corner that has snow for the snow defense idea, and in general to see if low price weak units work as a strategy (if they aren't weak enough then you have a huge army, if they are too weak then the enemy levels up alot). And again, there aren't any balanced units to compare these to. The closest thing is develings, and those are underpowered in EOM and overpowered in ageless, so that's not much of a help. I'll be able to do more balancing tests when they come out on the add on server, and will hopefully get this problem fixed for the next faction (or I'll just continue only using the cfg files for individual unit balancing).

EDIT: In the add on version and in the most recent development version the brungar don't have the changes that i suggested on p. 49 of the development thread and that Pentarctagon changed a bit on p. 55 of the development thread. In other words, the crabs still do pierce and weak damage and so on. Also: the turtle is better on land and in forest than the brungar are, and still has the -800 arcane resist. The turtle has 40% def and needs 1 mp to cross flat and has 30% and needs 2 mp to cross forest, while the brungar have 30% and need 1 mp on flat and 30% and need 3 mp on forest. The turtle should probably have at most 30% on flat and brungar should take 2 mp to cross forest, or else they might be too slow in general and on forested maps.

Also, ageless era stats override the era of the future stats again.

And the crab has 30% def on sand mountains, even though it's supposed to use the better defense and the worse movement IIRC.

Post Reply