Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.25

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SiegeTank
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Joined: July 31st, 2012, 4:10 am

Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by SiegeTank » August 17th, 2012, 2:49 am

I'd like to suggest some balancing Ideas. Fist off its regarding Brungar. I think the way they work at the moment makes them quite powerful(talking about alligator riders and tamers). It is at the moment a 2 unit faction. I think they need to have their lvl 2 and 3 exp requirement increased. the 30% on grass is more than compensated by the resistances. Alligator riders have 15 dmg + slow for a ranged attack (which is similar to the best guys that can slow in the era and then they have a mele attack 3x8 (again more than most dedicated mele units) and it requires only 23 exp to lvl it up that is ridiculously low for the unit that you get It also negates the only weakness that that unit is suspposed to have which is low hit points, you can get upgraded to lvl 2 whenever you want because its so easy to do that with both strong mele and ranged attacks and low exp requirements , so even if they manage to get him somehow low at hp (despite the slow for ranged and the 24 dmg for mele) he will soon lvl up and you get to fight the upgraded version of it thus removing its only supposed weakness- low hit points. The upgraded version is one of the best as well with 32 ranged damage + slow and 30 mele damage. Yet again it has low exp requirement for heal so even if you sacrifice 2-3 units to bring that best down in hit points he can just lvl up and heal and be ready to swallow some more of your units.

The other unit that i feel needs to be powered down is tamer. They are too good for what they do. They are straight out better unit than harpooner and hunter. they do as much damage as harpooner but have 5 more hit points and have ranged attack. at the cost of 1 gold. Also they require less exp to lvl up( which is what I dont understand why would a better unit require less exp than a worse unit?) same thing as with the alligator. Now for the 24 exp (in standard settings) you get to lvl up to a 55 hp beast with strong ranged 32 and mele 24 attack, and on top of that you get a free lvl 1 unit. I understand that the nation was supposed to use the units they get as tamers lvl up to help them in fight but it sholdnt be so easy to get those units.

I see two choices in balancing those two units(and maybe once that they are balanced more units of that faction will start being used)
First on is increase the exp requirements for both of them drastically (say 40-50%). Second one is nerf the lvl 2 upgrades instead.

For the alligator rider that is more straightforward, I'd say exp increase this way those things will become and expensice and hard-hitting , but a fragile unit(that it was supposed to be)

For the tamer I want to say that giving them increased exp requirements will do the job but then you would start missing some of the faction flavour - summoning units with tamers.
So I think its better to tune down the power of the tamer a bit.(reduce hit points for lvl1 ,2,3 and reduce mele and ranged damage for lvl 2 and for lvl 3) maybe one less ranged attack for lvl 3.

I'd also suggest to increase the hitpoints of dwarvish hunter. to say 30 so that they can become a good blocker and do the job of taking damamge, while tamers(being more fragile) come at the right time to do the kill and spawn more damage blockers(the creatures they summon as they lvl up). This will make the nation a bit more varied) Also reducing the ranged damage of a lvl 2 tamer will open a job for harpooner and harpooner specialist as ranged damage dealer. So whith those canges Brungar will be less OP and more of its units will see use.

Oh and about sea turtule or crab, I think the crab is not widely used just because sea turtule is so much better. I'd suggest increase the exp requirements of the sea turtle to be the same as the crab. and give the crab a bit better resistances.Better but different to those of the turtle this way you'd need one of them defending against one type of damage and using it mostly durring day(turtle) and then the other one against another type of damage and use it mostly durring night(crab). This will make it more of a choice rather than ("never buy a crab")

SiegeTank
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Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by SiegeTank » August 17th, 2012, 4:06 am

The other faction I'd like to mention about is often considered to be underpowered- The Sky Kingdom. I think the way the faction is supposed to be is having weak(glass-cannon) units with strong attacks. And in general it does function like that. Although their problem is that their blockers(the guys that are supposed to protect and defend your mages- A.k.a Golems and Mu's) are quite weak. I've often heard comments like " you make a mistake by buying those Mu's". The thing is I'd love to see them more used.

So now onto the problems. It might come to a surprise for you guys but Mu's are statistically better at tanking damage than Golems and that is not only crushing (due to golems's weakness) and arcane (due to Mu's 20% resistance) - any type (even if they are just slightly better). Many people look at a golem and see: 40% resistances they are soo cool and tough and there is no way that Mu's are better at taking damage. Let me show you some of their stats. I will work with hp/gold ratios as it is the easiest to calculate. Golems have 40% resistance for anything but blade and crushing. So lets say for now that they have 56 (40 +40%*40) effective hit points when you count resistances in. If you take into account that most units have 40% defence on grass and golems have 30% that lowers our effective hit points to roughly 50 (its 50.4).
So now 50 / 22 = 2.2727272 hit points per gold ratio. Just as an example I will give an average blocker from another "fragile" nation - windsong - the gatekeeper it has 38 Hp and it costs 15 gold. (it has 20% blade, crushing and pierce resistance which I will not take into consideration for the moment) . So 38/15 = 2.5333333. (so its a much stonger unit when it comes to blocking arcane fire and cold, and on top of that he gets + 20% more effective hitpoints when it is blade pierce and crushing damage. That gives you an Idea of how good golem is as a blocker.

Now Mu's have 20% arcane resistance ( so they are only "good" against arcane damage having 26.4/10 = 2.64 hp/gold ratio) and 24/10 = 2.4 hp/gold ratio in general. (not to mention that they have pathetic attack) so they are mostly useful as blockers. I would suggest a slight price increase (to 9 gold instead of 10). This way they will be 10% more effective at blocking and will see more use and will be at least an ok unit for what they are supposed to do(die so that the mages can live).
Oh and one more thing mu's and golems dont get any traits thus they are generally worse off than any blocker.


Now another change I'd like to suggest is increasing the hit points of the battle mage to 30 which is the way they are in the current version of Era of Magic that will help the faction a bit since they wont be loosing their expensive mages to 2 hits from a cheap mele unit.


The other unit I'd like to mention is subversive mage with their 22 hp they can not cost 18 gold. They are worse at dealing damage than battle mage and have lower hit points. I'd suggest lowering their price to 16 gold (as slow is still useful).

Also I'd suggest a price increase for the elementalist to 17 gold and increasing their hit points to 27 from 25. This should make them a bit better (due to survivability) and the price increase will reflect that.

Those are the changes I'd suggest implementing to give The Sky Kingdom at least a chance agianst the big fish in the Era:P

Also I'd like to say that there are a lot more balancing factors that I could have put into this post but that would make it hard and tedious for the readers. Some of them (I've thought about them as well for example: Damage lost form overkill(can not be gneralised easlity due to differences in damage of the units). Also the Hp/gold ratio I used doesnt use defence but its going to show the differences between the units nonetheless because most units have 40% defence on flat terrain and for units that have higher/lower than the standard that is taken into account. So its more of a ratio to compare units than to get the actual proper hp/gold ratio. (the differences between those two in terms of percentages will still be the same but the numbers will be different - higher due to +40% from the terrain defence).


Anyways thank you for your time reading this post. I hope my opinion was helpful for the developers of the Ageless era and its balance.
Last edited by SiegeTank on August 17th, 2012, 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

SiegeTank
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Joined: July 31st, 2012, 4:10 am

Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by SiegeTank » August 17th, 2012, 4:11 am

P.s.

As I get more exeprienced with other nation I will write more posts like this one (if it was helpful) suggesting more things. (like reducing the hp of Khoton Yak so that they start using some other units:))

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ChaosRider
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Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by ChaosRider » August 18th, 2012, 11:45 pm

One of abilities in ageless is not working well, this is not giving unit movements points after killing enemie...

Code: Select all

#define PK_ABILITY_FURY_VALUE VALUE
    [dummy]
        id=fury{VALUE}
        name= _ "Fury"
        description= _ "Fury:
This unit gains all " + {VALUE} + " moves back and can attack another after killing an enemy."
    [/dummy]
[/abilities]
[event]
    name=die
    first_time_only=no
    [filter_second]
        side=$side_number
        ability=fury
    [/filter_second]

    [store_unit]
        variable=furious
        [filter]
            x,y=$x2,$y2
        [/filter]
    [/store_unit]
    {VARIABLE_OP furious.attacks_left add 1}
    {VARIABLE_OP furious.moves add {VALUE}}
    [unstore_unit]
        variable=furious
        {COLOR_HARM}
        text= _ "FURY!"
        find_vacant=no
    [/unstore_unit]
[/event]
[+abilities]
#enddef
_____________________________________________
ok, this ability just need here to change "ability=fury" to "ability=fury{VALUE}".
Repaired.

Code: Select all

#define PK_ABILITY_FURY_VALUE VALUE
    [dummy]
        id=fury{VALUE}
        name= _ "Fury"
        description= _ "Fury:
This unit gains all " + {VALUE} + " moves back and can attack another after killing an enemy."
    [/dummy]
[/abilities]
[event]
    name=die
    first_time_only=no
    [filter_second]
        side=$side_number
        ability=fury{VALUE}
    [/filter_second]

    [store_unit]
        variable=furious
        [filter]
            x,y=$x2,$y2
        [/filter]
    [/store_unit]
    {VARIABLE_OP furious.attacks_left add 1}
    {VARIABLE_OP furious.moves add {VALUE}}
    [unstore_unit]
        variable=furious
        {COLOR_HARM}
        text= _ "FURY!"
        find_vacant=no
    [/unstore_unit]
[/event]
[+abilities]
#enddef
Last edited by ChaosRider on August 19th, 2012, 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SiegeTank
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Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by SiegeTank » August 19th, 2012, 11:38 am

I'd like to report what I think is a bug: Khton cannot recruit any units in the Ageless Heroes Era.

yamsgalor
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Khthon Faction Enthrall Issues, turtle Issues, and more.

Post by yamsgalor » August 24th, 2012, 4:44 am

I haven't found this in the changelog, and I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but the Khthon Faction(one with all the animals(BMR era)) doesn't have the enthrallment ability anymore. Enthrallment being when you kill a unit, then you have the ability to control the unit with full hp with the only downside being that the xp to level up is way higher than normal. And if I remember right, you could enthrall an enemy unit with its vector attack. It's vector attack is now useless, since for one it only attacks once or even twice (depending on level), and it also has very low accuracy (15%-25%), even for an arcane attack.

Another thing, is that the turtle that you can recruit from the faction can't be leveled up. I tried once on Isar's Blasphemy and the game crashed for everyone giving an error message saying that the turtle can't level up.

Apart from the Khthon Faction...

I haven't tested it thoroughly, but it may be a good idea for there to not be the default eras to choose from if there is an Extended Era counterpart. The may be a problem on matches in which the host demands people to choose random for their faction and they end up with default, especially considering how powerful the other eras can be in comparison.

SiegeTank
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Re: Khthon Faction Enthrall Issues, turtle Issues, and more.

Post by SiegeTank » August 24th, 2012, 5:56 am

yamsgalor wrote:I haven't found this in the changelog, and I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but the Khthon Faction(one with all the animals(BMR era)) doesn't have the enthrallment ability anymore. Enthrallment being when you kill a unit, then you have the ability to control the unit with full hp with the only downside being that the xp to level up is way higher than normal. And if I remember right, you could enthrall an enemy unit with its vector attack. It's vector attack is now useless, since for one it only attacks once or even twice (depending on level), and it also has very low accuracy (15%-25%), even for an arcane attack.
OK let me tell you the problems I see with Enthrallment. First off you have a ntaion whith really cheap units, with high HP good mele attacks and good resistances (ecept for astral which is supposed to be their weak point). If you were able to control the unit you kill that means that they level of OP-ness would go over the charts. people are complaining that a cheap unit like gate is able to level up with only 4 exp (at 70%exp), what people dont realize that you will never reach 4 exp by attacking, now attacking a level 1 unit gives you 4 exp, yes there are some lvl 1 units without mele retaliation, but that is still 4 attacks, you are much more likely to loose it for nothing. Maybe one in 10-20 would level up because of attacking but that is a small fraction and also having tried to level gates up by attacking and fighting with them would have lost you couple of them(and if you loose 2 others there are no benefits to the gate leveling up you spent 18 gold for a unit that costs 15-6), most of the time you will level up by killing an enemy unit. Now people still complain that that is overpowered. Imaginge having a built in gate in all of your units. thats what the Enthrallement ability was. (and also you dont waste money for the gates its all included).

Next issue vector attack. It is not useless in any way. the fact is that its useful mostly for defending (unless using a level 2 unit with vector 2 attacks) Also vector accuracy is 15 for lvl 1 25 for lvl 3 and 30 for lvl 3 units. So you have a unit that is strong with mele any that people can kill only with 4-5 ranged attacks provided that there arent many misses (we are talking about yak lets say with 49 hp) and you have a 15 % chance to vector an enemy unit. Now that is 5 times retaliating to ranged units with the 15% chance of vectoring unit. So against ranged attacks you have a pretty good chance(statistically) to get your unit worth back. What does that do to the enemy. It means that he looses a unit trying to kill your unit and you gain a unit. then eventually you loose the yak, but the again you most likely now have a shiny new lesser khton as an addition to your army.( the chance of getting a unit out of the ammount of retaliation needed to kill a yak would be about 50% ish can't be bothered to calculate it now, but thats roughly the idea). So now provided that you try and exploit their presumed weakness-(arcane damage) They would have to attack you (mostly with mages). And most mages have low hit points(20-25) now they would loose one mage at least(due to the fact that they wont be able to retreat their wounded mages since they die to 2 hits (or due to the fact that all the animals that you have, are with movement 6 so you are boud to loose the cost efficiency game) Now lets say the best scenario(provided equal ammount of armies) is that mages manage to kill one khton loosing one mage.(it is really best case scenario as it takes 3 18 gold mages to take down a yak (with the added bonus form -30%resistance Ill explain later about resistances as I've found out that positive-negative relationship is not even and some peopele have been using those whildly thinking: I'll give that unit a high negative resistance to compensate for the 3 high positive ones). But that is another issue for now ,as a matter of fact my calculations regarding sky-kingdom's hp/gold effectiveness were wrong due to the fact that I realised that relationship just after I wrote that post so I will update that post with the actuall numbers and the way I got there.

Ok continuing on the mage vs khton fight- your enemy looses one mage (there is a chance that the khton might escape because given proper play with khton their controller will form a unit wall not allowing you to attack most of his units with more than 2 mages. And now on top of the fact that mages cost more gold than any khton unit(unless cheap low damage ones but they dont count because they would need more strikes to kill the yak) you get a 50% chance (roughly) to get a bright new and shiny-full Hp unit for loosing your unit. (and that is when the enemy is using the supposed counter for your fraction) if you talk about mele attacks - there arent many mele fighthers with 20 damage, and 49 hit points for 16 gold. So you win the mele fight due to the efficiency of your animals. Now if you get stuck somewhere(say aonther overpowered nation) you can just get a horse or a goat to lvl 2 then you get 2x25% chance of converting an enemy unit, and with their decent HP you can retreat afterwards if you get damaged. The best part is: you can even take control of a lvl 4 unit(if your enemy fought hard enough and was careful enough to level it up). Tell me that thats not imbalanced, and make me laugh:).

Ok so now some of you will say in a normal game you'd never get to lvl 4 units. Ok I agree with that, but even taking over one of your enemies lvl 3 units(or lvl 2 as a matter of fact) on full hit points will mean that you win. And if your cheap lvl 2 unit(both in terms of gold and exp requirements- 25 for pyralodon, 22 for nightmare) managed to survive then you can go ahead heal it and convert some more units.

Thats why I think that you should only be able to convert units from a lower level than your unit. (which is not the case). Why so? because then you would have to be carefull and level up one of your units to lvl 2 before starting to convert enemy units and before this ability becomes stronger and better than plague. If you enable units only to convert lower level units, then it would act like plague at level 1 (you get can only convert level 0 units) although a bit weaker version because the enemy will avoid using level 0 units, and would become more powerful and actually useful at level 2 and level 3. This will make this nation a little bit less powerful at level 1 but if as long as you manage to level up your cheap and durable units you will be able to use your best and deadly weapon. (also another suggestion if the change with the level is implemented is to even the chances of conversion to say 25% for all levels). I feel that this way you add more complexity(actually having to retreat your units that have accumulated exp so that you get get to the benefits of the vector weapon rather then just charge in and convert freely and win the game.

Also anther thing I've noticed is that that ability is working only for one or two shots for some reason and then its damge drops to 0 or number of strikes dropping to 0. But I'm not sure why that is and if someone can come up with the proper mechanics of it, I'd be grateful and it will help me a lot in suggesting how to change it.

SiegeTank
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Re: Khthon Faction Enthrall Issues, turtle Issues, and more.

Post by SiegeTank » August 24th, 2012, 5:59 am

yamsgalor wrote: I haven't tested it thoroughly, but it may be a good idea for there to not be the default eras to choose from if there is an Extended Era counterpart. The may be a problem on matches in which the host demands people to choose random for their faction and they end up with default, especially considering how powerful the other eras can be in comparison.
I dont think this will be a good idea since then you are setting up the standard of balance higher and people will get away with more overpowred stuff, and then you'd get more and more people complaining what is overpowred and what is not. (since most of them will be)

SiegeTank
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Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by SiegeTank » August 24th, 2012, 6:18 am

Ok so now onto the resistances. The fact is that prositive resistances and negative resistances dont work the same way. So having a positive reistance is much more beneficial and cannot be balanced with adding the same ammount of negative reistance of some other type of damage. I will show you now what I mean. Imagine having a unit with 100 HP and 50% blade resistance, and 50% fire vulnerability lets say. People might think (ye that is balanced it has +50% and -50%) but it isnt. so now imagine you have 2 of those 100 Hp +50% blade/-50% fire units and you have 3 other units:
one with 10 blade damage ,one with 10 fire damage and one with 10 arcane damage attacking them. So the first one will be doing 5 damage, and the second one will be doing 15 damage and the third one(where resistance against its damage is 0) is going to be hitting for 10 damage.
So far so good, Now calculate the ammount of times you need to hit that 100Hp unit with all of them. Its 20 (100/5) for the first one , 6.6667 (100/15) for the second one and 10 (100/10) for the third one. Now I used the third one to should you the standard damage/hit points relationship. Can you see the difference between the ammount of hits needed. So the first unit needs to hit 10 more times for the kill, wheares the second unit needs 3 less hits so that he can kill them. So you can not balance Unit "A" for being able to resist 10 more hits from Unit "B" , by giving Units "C" the ablity to kill unit "A" with 3 less hits. The fact is that Unit "B" will loose 100 damage in the process, wheares unit "C" will gain 33.3333 damage, only a third of that.

SiegeTank
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Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by SiegeTank » August 24th, 2012, 6:25 am

Another thing regarding resistances is that the ammount of EHP* (effective HP) you get doesnt grow by the same ammount whe you use them. So a 10% increase from 0 to 10% resistance gives you much less EHP than a 10% increase from 60% to 70% ( the thing abuot defence is that it acts the same but it is not as straightforward as resistances since you have to calculate chances ,and also take into account vulnerability to marksman, magic, scattershot, precision and other attacks , that have certain % chance to hit.) I will modify this post as I have time, to show why it is so.

*by effective hit points here I mean the ammount of damage a unit can sustiain from certain type of attacks provided that it has a resistance to that type of attacks. In general (but not in this post) when I talk about Effective hit points I would take into account terrain defence as well.

Just as a quick example about the confusion that happnes when you mix all these up Ill use AE Enchanter's unit: Titan. A level 2 unit that has better resistances, hit points a bit less than and damage similar to( a bit less) than Kirios(lvl 4) and requires only 42 exp to lvl up from level 1 unit. Here people have tried to balance the unit's reistances by giving it lower defence on grass and other terrain. And that could be used as a balance but ONLY in the case where you reduce and increase from and to the same percentage of defence/resistances. So if a unit (as a template) that has 60% defence on grass, and he has 40% reistance to all types of damage, you can make him have 40% defence on grass and increase all resistances to 60%. If you however have a unit (as a template) with 40% defence on grass, and 60% resistances(to all damage) you can't increase its resistances to 80% and try to compansate to that with reducing its defence on grass to 20%, because you will effectively be buffing the unit a lot instead of keeping it the same. I wll explain why this happens later on as I have time to show you the formula I've used to find out about effective hit points. (and once this formula is used quite a lot of units can be balanced easily with it estimating the hp/gold and damage/gold ratio, the unit abilities will still have to be balanced on a guess but this I hope (when its done) this will help/make easier to balance things)

Thank you again for your time, reading those long and tedious posts, but they were even longer and more tedious to write down:D

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Re: Khthon Faction Enthrall Issues, turtle Issues, and more.

Post by yamsgalor » August 24th, 2012, 5:43 pm

SiegeTank wrote:
"Now if you get stuck somewhere(say aonther overpowered nation) you can just get a horse or a goat to lvl 2 then you get 2x25% chance of converting an enemy unit, and with their decent HP you can retreat afterwards if you get damaged. The best part is: you can even take control of a lvl 4 unit(if your enemy fought hard enough and was careful enough to level it up). Tell me that thats not imbalanced, and make me laugh:)."
I wrote what I did thinking that the only way to control enemy units was to kill with melee attacks or to hit once with the vector attack. Before then I never tested to see that the only way to enthrall was to use the vector attack to finish off the enemy unit. I now understand the balance. But one more thing: If I kill with vector attack while defending, I don't have the opportunity to control the unit. But perhaps that is the concern of the original creator of the faction(if the Ageless author isn't the same author(i don't know)).

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Re: Khthon Faction Enthrall Issues, turtle Issues, and more.

Post by doofus-01 » August 25th, 2012, 5:28 am

yamsgalor wrote: But perhaps that is the concern of the original creator of the faction(if the Ageless author isn't the same author(i don't know)).
We're not the same, I have no idea what is going on in Ageless and can't answer to specific bugs discovered in it. The original Vector probably has problems, I'm going to revisit it soon. Yes, balance is difficult with this.

As far as I know, Ageless isn't synchronized with the original eras, so if changes are made it can take a while to propagate (if the author/maintainers are trying to keep true to the original, which they may not be).
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Devas
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Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by Devas » August 28th, 2012, 3:05 pm

The loyalist unit from the "statesman" race (sea states faction?) is broken, its movetype isn't defined I think. (0% def everywhere and can't go anywhere)
Plus only its arcane resistance is defined.

And I have a suggestion: remove the Cavernei faction altogether (imperial era), it's nothing but a crappy unbalanced remake of the knalgans with less units and more expensive gryph riders. It'd really do everyone good.
Last edited by Devas on September 2nd, 2012, 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Dream_Merchant
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Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by Dream_Merchant » August 28th, 2012, 5:22 pm

The same goes for the Light Spirit from the Celestials. Cant move and 0% defense everywhere.

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taptap
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Re: Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.10

Post by taptap » September 18th, 2012, 1:09 pm

Aragwaithi sprites are not up to date (I understand that stats are different too, but sprites could be sync'ed with the stand alone faction). Most importantly the Aragwaithi archer tends to disappear while standing. At least one high elf unit has the same problem. (Noticed yesterday in Orocia map)

There is a bug in the Era of Four Moon/Sea States paddleship. Melee counterattack seriously lags. This bug doesn't exist in the stand-alone era
Last edited by taptap on September 19th, 2012, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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