Ageless Era - Current Version: 4.27

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balmung60
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by balmung60 »

I would like to second that, and ask why the Ancient Banner was removed (it'd be nice to have, at least in the RPG version of the era)
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MattDakka
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by MattDakka »

I noticed that Lavinian legionnaires have melee--blade.
They should have melee--pierce, because gladii were historically used more to stab enemies than to slash them.
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monochromatic
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by monochromatic »

Well that should go into the Imperial development thread; Ageless just complies all the eras together.
What about the thieves' melee attack? They have a dagger, which *stabs*, further emphasized by the weapon special, back*stab*. They have a blade attack. It's strange how you would complain about a UMC era while there are so many instances in Default which use the same thing.

Note that blade doesn't meaning 'slashing' and pierce 'stabbing'. They just describe the weapon type.

EDIT: okay, now imagine a thief back*stab*bing a cavalryman. That just sounds wrong to me. It's definitely blade.
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MattDakka
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by MattDakka »

elvish_sovereign wrote:Well that should go into the Imperial development thread; Ageless just complies all the eras together.
What about the thieves' melee attack? They have a dagger, which *stabs*, further emphasized by the weapon special, back*stab*. They have a blade attack. It's strange how you would complain about a UMC era while there are so many instances in Default which use the same thing.

Note that blade doesn't meaning 'slashing' and pierce 'stabbing'. They just describe the weapon type.

EDIT: okay, now imagine a thief back*stab*bing a cavalryman. That just sounds wrong to me. It's definitely blade.
Honestly, I don't play usually the default, because I find it silly and illogical for my idea of dwarves.
Thieves as well are not logical, but I wasn't thinking of them at the moment.
It is just a suggestion, not a complain.
By the way the thieves as well could be fixed as you pointed out.
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monochromatic
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by monochromatic »

But that would throw off the balance of all the eras made so far! Thieves will now be strangely strong to cavalrymen, horsemen, and drakes, and now strangely weak to woses, skeletons, and ghosts. WINR. Gameplay trumps realism every time. Sorry.

EDIT:
By the way the thieves as well could be fixed as you pointed out.
What?! I didn't suggest any change. I pointed out that it'd be completely wrong if we indeed changed it.
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MattDakka
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by MattDakka »

elvish_sovereign wrote:But that would throw off the balance of all the eras made so far! Thieves will now be strangely strong to cavalrymen, horsemen, and drakes, and now strangely weak to woses, skeletons, and ghosts. WINR. Gameplay trumps realism every time. Sorry.
Ok, then I'm happy if the Legionnaires only and not the thieves will have melee--pierce.
If we want to argue, a skeleton, a wose or a ghost shoudn't be weak against a dagger like that used by the thief, so what's the problem?
Nothing strange.
Last edited by MattDakka on August 21st, 2010, 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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monochromatic
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by monochromatic »

elvish_sovereign wrote:But that would throw off the balance of all the eras made so far! Thieves will now be strangely strong to cavalrymen, horsemen, and drakes, and now strangely weak to woses, skeletons, and ghosts.
MattDakka wrote:If we want to argue, a skeleton shoudn't be weak against a dagger like that used by the thief.
Congratulations. You just bolstered my argument. Yes, a skeleton should be stronger to pierce than blade.
MattDakka wrote:Ok, then I'm happy if the Legionnaires only and not the thieves will have melee--pierce.
You'll have to talk to Turin then. He's the creator of the era, and (if I'm not mistaken) still maintaining it.
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MattDakka
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by MattDakka »

elvish_sovereign wrote:
elvish_sovereign wrote:But that would throw off the balance of all the eras made so far! Thieves will now be strangely strong to cavalrymen, horsemen, and drakes, and now strangely weak to woses, skeletons, and ghosts.
MattDakka wrote:If we want to argue, a skeleton shoudn't be weak against a dagger like that used by the thief.
Congratulations. You just bolstered my argument. Yes, a skeleton should be stronger to pierce than blade.
Ehm I said that a dead bone creature is not affected by pierce, take as example DnD skeletons, not very vulnerable to piercing weapons like arrows and daggers.
You said that the thief would be weak against skeleton, and I said that is normal that a pierce weapon is weak against a tree, a skeleton, or a ghost.
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bumbadadabum
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by bumbadadabum »

MattDakka wrote:
elvish_sovereign wrote: Congratulations. You just bolstered my argument. Yes, a skeleton should be stronger to pierce than blade.
Ehm I said that a dead bone creature is not affected by pierce, take as example DnD skeletons, not vulnerable to piercing weapons.
You said that the thief would be weak against skeleton, and I said that is normal that a pierce weapon is weak against a tree, a skeleton, or a ghost.
That is already included ingame, but, WINR. A thief is good as it is. He doesn't need any changes.
About the Legionairre, if slashing is more effective, why would you stab.
And, WINR [acronym=G*D D*MN*T]GDMT[/acronym].
monochromatic
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by monochromatic »

MattDakka wrote:Ehm I said that a dead bone creature is not affected by pierce, take as example DnD skeletons, not vulnerable to piercing weapons.
You said that the thief would be weak against skeleton, and I said that is normal that a pierce weapon is weak against a tree, a skeleton, or a ghost.
WINDND. If you want to use that argument skeletons should have 100% blade and pierce resists then. On the contrary skeletons have a 60% resist to pierce and only a 40% resist to blade.

We're arguing two different things here. You are arguing that pierce should be weak against the aforementioned units. That's true. It is. I'm arguing that if we change the thieves (and all corresponding cases, like archers, assassins, anything with a "stabbing" weapon) it will disrupt gameplay, as currently thieves are not weak to those units because they have blade rather than pierce. Am I clear?

Again, WINR. No one will buy your arguments because they are all based on realism. This is a game. We are not creating an alternate world. Gameplay is all that matters.

EDIT: Ninja'd
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MattDakka
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by MattDakka »

elvish_sovereign wrote:
MattDakka wrote:Ehm I said that a dead bone creature is not affected by pierce, take as example DnD skeletons, not vulnerable to piercing weapons.
You said that the thief would be weak against skeleton, and I said that is normal that a pierce weapon is weak against a tree, a skeleton, or a ghost.
Again, WINR. No one will buy your arguments because they are all based on realism. This is a game. We are not creating an alternate world. Gameplay is all that matters.
EDIT: Ninja'd
Gameplay can follow realism, realism is not necessary enemy of gameplay, and realism should be ever sought, if possible.
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MattDakka
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by MattDakka »

LightFighter wrote: That is already included ingame, but, WINR. A thief is good as it is. He doesn't need any changes.
About the Legionairre, if slashing is more effective, why would you stab.
And, WINR [acronym=G*D D*MN*T]GDMT[/acronym].
Because in reality stabbing with a gladius proved to be more effective than slashing.
It's pretty simple.
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by bumbadadabum »

MattDakka wrote:
LightFighter wrote: That is already included ingame, but, WINR. A thief is good as it is. He doesn't need any changes.
About the Legionairre, if slashing is more effective, why would you stab.
And, WINR [acronym=G*D D*MN*T]GDMT[/acronym].
Because in reality stabbing with a gladius proved to be more effective than slashing.
It's pretty simple.
You really won't give up, would you?
WINR, and it stays that way.
monochromatic
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by monochromatic »

MattDakka wrote:
elvish_sovereign wrote: Again, WINR. No one will buy your arguments because they are all based on realism. This is a game. We are not creating an alternate world. Gameplay is all that matters.
EDIT: Ninja'd
Gameplay can follow realism, realism is not necessary enemy of gameplay, and realism should be ever sought, if possible.
Incorrect. Rather realism follows gameplay. If the gameplay proves to be fitting, then realism can be applied. There already so many things in Wesnoth that are not realistic. It strikes me as strange that you seem to ignore those things and simply pursue this matter. If you want gameplay to follow realism, why don't you attack those areas as well?
Because of this along with WINR and gameplay disagreement, your argument is invalid (at least to me).
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mnewton1
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Re: Ageless Era - Released Version 4.3

Post by mnewton1 »

Well isn't this off-topic? If you want to have a debate about it, make a new thread somewhere else, but please stay on topic. Anyway, I will not change the Legionnaire's attack to pierce, unless you can come up with a good reason on how it would improve the balance.

Now, back on topic:
Ageless Era will be put on the 1.9 add-on server today. I am fixing all the bugs now and will have it up later. I will also update on the 1.8 add-on server.
Creator of Ageless Era
Check out Frogatto & Friends, it's made by the same people who created The Battle for Wesnoth!
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