BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.3.2

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arctic
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.1

Post by arctic »

I'd just like to say how much I appreciate your work into bringing this diverse races into balance and make them playable versus each other. I know that this is a very hard task, so I understand why that even now there are many races/units that are imbalanced in the Balanced Advanced Era.

Here are a few things I noticed:
  • Minotaurs : Overall I think the race is too overpowered, especially on small maps where a few units can easily get map control. The beserker, for example can take down an elvish fighter on forest terrain easily and will easily dispatch any ranged units. It's high hp and decent dodge makes it 10x more powerful than the dwarven beserk unit, in addition it's got +3 hp regen. It's cost (24 gold I believe? is still too low for all the benefits that come with that unit) Not one level unit in the game can match that. The Knoll, which has 70% defense in swamps and also hides in swamps and is only 15 gold is highly valuable in maps with swamps in the center (there are many). This makes offensive a viable option in the event of a bogged down trench warfare (most games tend to be that way)
  • Kalifa: The original version had no magical units, however it did have a marksman amir. Thus, breaking through strong defensive formations was possible in the original version. Now, I notice marksman has been taken away, leaving kalifa helpless in most offensives.
  • Elementals: never lost with them. Extremely OP. Summon ability makes keeps obsolete, meaning leader is not confined and can help in battles. Master of balance is especially OP. Also, variety of strong ranged magical units are powerful against most races. It's variety makes it highly adaptable, and water elemental means it dominates any water maps.
I'm no expert at Wesnoth, what do you guys think about these comments?

Also, I keep on getting OOS every time a player has chaos and recruits a lesser mutation.

Those are all I've noticed so far. Thanks again and keep up the great work!
Voodoo
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.1

Post by Voodoo »

Thank you very much for your help! :)
I please you, keep playing and posting your feebacks! They are very important for me!
I'll take into account what you wrote.
Does anyone else want to write is opinion?

edit: I'll modify something in the Elementals and I'll lower Behemoth's hitpoints :)

edit2: the Chaos recruitment bug has already been fixed!
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by Voodoo »

Here it is the new release, the 3.1.2 version!
There aren't a lot of changes, but there are some changes that can improve the general balancement.
I followed the advices I had in these weeks, I hope you will like the changes!
I also fixed the Wooden Bird (Clockword Dwarves) resistances!

Enjoy! :)

The changelog:

-Version 3.1.2 (31/03/2009)
- Various tweaks
- Fixed Clockwork Dwarves Wooden Bird resistances
- Modified Wood Warriors
-Carnivore Plant
-hitpoints: 30 -> 28
-regeneration skill: 8hp/turn -> 4hp/turn
-Fatal Tangle
-hitpoints: 50 -> 46
-regeneration skill: 8hp/turn -> 4hp/turn
- Modified Elementals
-Small Air Elemental
-hitpoints: 19 -> 18
-shallow water movement: 1 -> 2
-deep water movement: 1 -> 2
-Air Elemental
-shallow water movement: 1 -> 2
-deep water movement: 1 -> 2
-Small Water Elemental
-ability: no more heals+4
-Water Elemental
-hitpoints: 45 -> 43
-Master of Balance
-hitpoints: 40 -> 37
-Random Evocation now costs 19 gold instead of 17 gold
- Modified Prime Material Beasts
-Animated Rock
-hitpoints: 30 -> 31
-Rock Golem
-hitpoints: 43 -> 45
-Rock Tital
-hitpoints: 43 -> 56
- Modified Minotaurs
-Behemoth
-hitpoints: 44 -> 42
-mountains defense: 60% -> 50%
-Ancient Behemoth
-hitpoints: 58 -> 56
-mountains defense: 60% -> 50%
- Modified Steppe Orcs
-Steppe Hunter
-hitpoints: 26 -> 25
-experience: 30 -> 28
-knife attack 3-2 -> 4-2
-Steppe Flanker
-hitpoints: 30 -> 28
-experience: 100 -> 94
-knife attack 5-2 -> 6-2
-Steppe Striker
-hitpoints: 30 -> 28
-experience: 100 -> 94
-knife attack 5-2 -> 6-2
DarkDespair5
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by DarkDespair5 »

Love the era and all the tweaks you've made :)

Undead rebalancing suggestions:

1: Do the undead REALLY need a fire mage? It seems to break with the cold/arcane weapon types most magical undead have. It also gives them too much magical variety. Hey elves? Yeah I have a fire mage ready to BURN your Woses...

2: The Mohrg is quite a useless unit. It can't hold a candle to many level 2s because of its incredibly weak ranged attack. It will die in very few turns to level 2 *melee* units as well because of its resistances and low attack power, even if it does have drains. It is also not very practical to plague units with it since it has no lv3 on its advancement chain and thus deprives other units of xp. Compare with the Wight, whose 5-3 drains/plague can hold its own against some melee units decently.

How I would fix this:
1. Make the Mohrg spawn Wights instead of Zombies.
2. Remove its ranged poisons and melee slows and give it a more powerful ranged drains perhaps. Zombies shouldn't be used as support!
runearun
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by runearun »

1. I concur that the undead faction necessitates certain modifications to reduce the imbalance presented through the plethora of units in the faction.

In my experience, the fire mage is relatively unnecessary. Consequently, removal of this branch in the evolution tree of the skeleton mage is not a bad idea.

The pattern that the undead possess cold and arcane weapons is logical. These classifications of attacks characterize the undead faction; these creatures are dead, re-animated through magic. A fire mage undermines this generalization. Thus, the fire mage is clearly out of place within the faction.

2. As on now, the Mohrg serves little purpose. Boosting it's plague powers to summon Wights instead is a solution. An alternative method to resolve this predicament is to simply remove the two added attacks. Instead of adding new attacks with little power, it is much more prudent to make the unit's main attack stronger.

The Wight has a 5-3 drains plague attack. The Morgh only has a 7-3 drains plague attack. Instead, give this unit a 7-4 drains plague attack. This makes it a formidable unit against other lv2 melee units. The tradeoff is that the Morgh loses its second melee. The ranged attack is equally useless. For purposes of balance, the ranged attack may be removed if a level 3 evolution is added. It makes sense that the Morgh should be a formidable level 2. Thus, the ranged attack can be added in the level 3 form instead.

Since both of these methods aid in the balance of this woefully underpowered unit, both changes could be taken. This would restore the Morgh to it's intended status as a formidable level 2 undead unit.
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Voodoo
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by Voodoo »

DarkDespair5 wrote:Love the era and all the tweaks you've made :)
Thanks! :)
1: Do the undead REALLY need a fire mage? It seems to break with the cold/arcane weapon types most magical undead have. It also gives them too much magical variety. Hey elves? Yeah I have a fire mage ready to BURN your Woses...
Well, the fire mage is available only at level 2. For level 1 units you can't have fire attacks.
The power of the Undeads is indeed their variety! They have heavy weaknesses (they are very weak to arcane and impact attacks and they're generally poor in hitpoints).
2: The Mohrg is quite a useless unit. It can't hold a candle to many level 2s because of its incredibly weak ranged attack. It will die in very few turns to level 2 *melee* units as well because of its resistances and low attack power, even if it does have drains. It is also not very practical to plague units with it since it has no lv3 on its advancement chain and thus deprives other units of xp. Compare with the Wight, whose 5-3 drains/plague can hold its own against some melee units decently.
The Mohrg isn't a heavy unit you can use like a classic infantry unit (such as a lv2 Skeleton). Its power is the poison! Even if he's a lv2 units, he must act as a support unit: he can both poison and slow! He should be compared to other lv2 support units! :)
1. Make the Mohrg spawn Wights instead of Zombies.
Well, if I did this, I should weaken the Mohrg (for example to lower his attack damage), because to spawn level1 units it's avery very powerfull skill! In addition read below:
2. Remove its ranged poisons and melee slows and give it a more powerful ranged drains perhaps. Zombies shouldn't be used as support!
I can't do that! I didn't created the Mohrg on my own! It has its own feedback, you can read it here:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mohrg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undead_(Du ... ons)#Mohrg
Voodoo
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by Voodoo »

runearun wrote:1. I concur that the undead faction necessitates certain modifications to reduce the imbalance presented through the plethora of units in the faction.

In my experience, the fire mage is relatively unnecessary. Consequently, removal of this branch in the evolution tree of the skeleton mage is not a bad idea.
The fire mage is available only at level2! As I wrote in the previous post:
For level 1 units you can't have fire attacks.
The power of the Undeads is indeed their variety! They have heavy weaknesses (they are very weak to arcane and impact attacks and they're generally poor in hitpoints).
The pattern that the undead possess cold and arcane weapons is logical. These classifications of attacks characterize the undead faction; these creatures are dead, re-animated through magic. A fire mage undermines this generalization. Thus, the fire mage is clearly out of place within the faction.
That's maybe right, but it's a level2 units. It's not completely wrong to think that he can learn a fire attack!
2. As on now, the Mohrg serves little purpose. Boosting it's plague powers to summon Wights instead is a solution. An alternative method to resolve this predicament is to simply remove the two added attacks. Instead of adding new attacks with little power, it is much more prudent to make the unit's main attack stronger.
As I wrote before, I can't do that! Read above the reason! :)
The Wight has a 5-3 drains plague attack. The Morgh only has a 7-3 drains plague attack. Instead, give this unit a 7-4 drains plague attack. This makes it a formidable unit against other lv2 melee units. The tradeoff is that the Morgh loses its second melee.
It should be too strong...
The ranged attack is equally useless. For purposes of balance, the ranged attack may be removed if a level 3 evolution is added. It makes sense that the Morgh should be a formidable level 2. Thus, the ranged attack can be added in the level 3 form instead.
...and the reason is becouse of both its ranged attack, that's a poison attack (one of the most powerfull attack of the game) and his slow melee attack (incredibly useful)! The Mohrg isn't a fighter, he isn't an pure infantry unit! You must see him as a support unit!
Since both of these methods aid in the balance of this woefully underpowered unit, both changes could be taken. This would restore the Morgh to it's intended status as a formidable level 2 undead unit.
Yeah but it just should be a level 2 unit as the others... I can't cancel the plague nor slow because of its feedback, so I can't raise his damage!
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MattDakka
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by MattDakka »

Big foot costing only 14 seems to be too cheap for an unit with 6-3 impact attacks and wood ambush.
The Druid alignment should be neutral, in D&D Druid are neutral for definition.
Carnivore plant should be neutral too, the nature and animals are ever neutral, not good nor evil, just neutral, lacking of intellect to choose good or evil.

The Faun should be chaotic (Faun are linked to Dyonisus, the Greek god of excess, orgies, sex and chaos).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun

Clockwork Wooden birds are too powerful for their cost, considering high movement, 50% evasion, and no weakness (besides the lack of a melee attack).
They are far better than Dwarf gyrocopters, but costing only 16.
Favourite Eras: Ageless Era; Eastern Europe at War.
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Cloud
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by Cloud »

Just because something is neutral in D&D doesn't make it a reason for being neutral in Wesnoth.

And following your logic all plants should actually be Lawful (as plants rely on photosynthesis and therefore light to respire [well it's a little more complex than that, with funky stuff like electron transport chains, but that's a simplified version]) Carnivorous plants are no exception as they usually 'eat' animals for the nutrients they contain, not energy. That said, a plant that can move or whatnot probably does have consciousness, or at least is magically controlled, which only makes it as good or evil as it's controller.

As for Fauns/Satyrs, well Dionysus/Bacchus is the god of wine, which leads into madness, excess, whatnot. But that doesn't mean they would fight better in the night. They're a nature spirit, which to my eyes fights equally during night and day.

Then again all of this should be balanced against the rest of the faction they're contained in (I can't find a list too look at the units)
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MattDakka
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by MattDakka »

Voodoo just explained that he refers to D&D for Mohrg, so for logical deduction it means that he uses for reference D&D to make his era and inspiring him.
The plant could be legal, I can agree with you in those terms, but Druid must be neutral for definition due to his close bound to nature.
Favourite Eras: Ageless Era; Eastern Europe at War.
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cretin
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by cretin »

MattDakka this is not dnd, so there is no "must" in the druid being neutral. The druid could be chaotic or Lawful in this world, for different reasons.
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MattDakka
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by MattDakka »

There is no must, but Voodoo should correct it.
I know him and all the times he talks about D&D, he would like to change Dark Elves in Drows too, by the way.
Favourite Eras: Ageless Era; Eastern Europe at War.
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Voodoo
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.1.2

Post by Voodoo »

I'm glad you are posting these hints :)
And yeah it's true Cretin, I follow D&D for a lot of things :)

Well, the Druid's alignment will be changed to neutral in the next release!
The Carnivore Plant's one will be kept lawful because they need light, as Cretin said!

About Faun... I don't know very well what to do..
About the Big Foot, I'll take a look!

I'll also fix the Wooden Bird. You're right, now it's far too strong! :)
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.2

Post by Voodoo »

Here it is the 3.2 version of the BEEM!
The most important news is the new era!! It's also in beta version and it's made for fun battles only: the Balanced Guilds Era!
The factions are the Guilds: Fighter Guild, Mages Guild, Bowmans Guild, Thieves Guild, Knights Guild, Healers Guild and Seamen Guild!
I hope you enjoy it!

Other changes are made to some factions in order to improve the balancing: Kalifa and Anakes are now a bit stronger, the Wooden Birg strenght has been lowered!

Have fun :)

-Version 3.1.2 (15/04/2009)
- New Era: Balanced Guilds Era (beta)
- Various tweaks and bug fixes
- Fixed Falcon and Elder Falcon movements
- New Kalifa graphics
- Modified Wood Warriors
-Wood's Druid
-alignment: chaotic -> neutral
-Legendary Sorcerer
-alignment: chaotic -> neutral
- Modified Anakes
-Heterodox
-cost: 18 -> 17
-hitpoints: 37 -> 36
-Leech Rider
-hitpoints: 41 -> 42
-Leech Knoght
-hitpoints: 57 -> 59
-Leech Dragoon
-hitpoints: 74 -> 75
- Modified Clockwork Dwarves
-Wooden Bird
-cost: 16 -> 17
-fire resistance: 0% -> -20%
-impact resistance: 0% -> -10%
-Steel Eagle
-cost: 20 -> 36
-hitpoints: 40 -> 44
-fire resistance: 0% -> -20%
-impact resistance: 0% -> -10%
- Modified Lavinians
-Auxiliary
-no more zoc
- Modified Kalifa
-Amir
-impact resistance: -10% -> 0%
-spear attack -> mace attack
-spear type attack: pierce -> impact
-mace attack: 10-2 -> 9-2
-Arif
-impact resistance: 0% -> 10%
-Immortal
-impact resistance: 10% -> 20%
-Mubarizan
-impact resistance: -10% -> 0%
-Ahadath
-hitpoints: 36 -> 35
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MattDakka
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Re: BEEM - Balancing Extended Era Modification v3.2

Post by MattDakka »

Wooden birds are still too spammable.
The fire -20 and impact -10 weaknesses don't compensate the 40 blade, 60 pierce!, 20 arcane resistances.
Besides this, I spotted what seems to be a graphic bug:
the Wooden Bird sprite, when moved above a water/swamp/ford hexagon shows to be half deep in it, like if it was a ground unit, not a flier.
The shallow/deep water and swamp evasion is 40%. How can it be possible? It is a flier, so it should have 50% in those terrains.
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