Biomancy vs. Necromancy etc.

[MaxRip]

Well, I am in the process of making an era involving necromancers vs. biomancers. to clarify, biomancers are like necromancers in that they strive to create life in a way. The difference is that necromancers use previously living material (corpses etc) as biomancers, who also work with life magics and the ability of creating life from nothing, use raw materials that were never living.


My coding is almost done for 20+ units (although using temporary stick figure graphics to test with) but I realized one problem... I am out of ideas! And also now my biomancer units outnumber my necromancer ones. any ideas for new necromancy ideas?
PS> new at forums, long time player and psudo-WML literite unit coder.

[AI]

temporary stick figure graphics

AWESOME!

Anyway, you could start out with posting what units you have now. Also, a faction should usually have about 5-9 recruitable units, so you may not even need more units. Balancing the matchup is a bigger concern.

[MaxRip]

5-9 recruitable units, so you may not even need more units. Balancing the matchup is a bigger concern.

There are, in spite of my conviction towards KISS, more than two factions. Two factions would be too Great-War like and harder to transcribe for use in campaigns. Many different types of Necromancers with separate specialties, and separate specialties of Biomancers. Although I am trying to keep it from being elemental era-esque things. I first make the groups so I can always have a precoded faction for any future campaigns I make. Keep in mind I will probobly not release the many-factions version, but use it for my self in my campaigns.
these groups are
Geomancers, with stone, earth, magma, etc.
Botaniomancers, with plants,
Aquamancers/Hydromancers (name pending based off latin vs aesthetically pleasing)
then the NEcromancers subgroups
Spirit Captor/Soul Stealers, with soul-based units
Carnemancer, with flesh and ghoulish ones
Bone Builders, you can guess that one.
To address the 5-9 recruitable units problem, It is a matter of advancement equality. plus, I took out Walking corpse for obvious balancing reasons, along with liches, except as a leader. You want the list by the way of the units?

Well,

first off the stone-based Biomancers branch of advancement

• Rock cluster -> Stone Man -> Crag
  (alternate path)-> Brickbear -> Boulderbeast
  
  Burrower -> Molten Missive
  (alternite path) ->Sandman
  
  Sand Sculpter-> Clay artisan -> Weathered Geomancer
  then a few of the pre made stone units ones from elementals

Then we have the plant based version or botaniomancers. (yes I know plants are already alive.)

• Leaf Litter-> Cruncher
  Gardener -> Green thumb-> Botanist
  (the next few are still unnamed, or pending with me based off you guys' thoughts.)
  Twig->branch being
  OR it ->log legged thing-> Fruit Bearer
  
  and we have wose and the elemental era's ones.

I will continue in next post, need to eat pizza first... vision is tunnely...

[MaxRip]

Aahh pizza, panacea of mine, ambrosia of the gods.
(I just got some really wierd looks for yelling that,) anyways...
I have a sort of bias towards sand and clay and water as I work at a pond's beach. The aquamancers developed as part of a discovery made about an ancient lake that could bestow healing and water that was alive. It was starting to dry up so a few developed a method of carrying the enchanted water in a safe wat, one drop being given to every villager when they reached adulthood to guard.
Aquamancers, with their awesomeness ways. Remember, all names pending

Fisherman->Pond Defender(name pending)-> Aquaturton (lost a bet to cousin on this one)
------------>Waterfront mage-> water whisperer ->Hydromancer.
And a few unnamed ones, 2 to be precise
And the elemental era's.


Then are the necromancers classs.

The soul based ones

Generic ghost and its tree.

Despaired Widow/widower (lost loved one) -> Soul Collector (pulls souls to earth) -> Manipulator

Poltergeist

Restless spirit
--------------------------------------------

then the flesh artisans (whom came to me in a nightmare.)

Butcher->Killer->maniac
-------->sticher-> flesh artisan

then the fleshy ghouls and such.
and a walking corpse-esque thing minus plague and plus third advancement and more hp and power.
--------------------------------------------
The boneyard builders

Skeleton
Skeleton Archers
Anatomist-> no name yet -> Boneyard Builder
----------> no name yet either-> Evil Archaeologist Mage

Gargantuan

Skull Masher


---------------
you may notice I have some setup for a campaign. And yes, I do. But... First things first, right?

[MaxRip]

Dont worry, I won't be ressurecting removed units...
Although, then again... Muahahahah! I can just tweak some other chocobones coding whilst at it... and make a chocotrice! And I had a pre made chocobones sans rider pic already made anyways... and then I can find my old 0.8x backup files cockotrice... and tweak red dragon into ordinary matched dragon... and take the dragon skeleton... and... maybe I will make the ordinary one GREEN!!! Okay... I need to take a break from that line of thought. But maybe I will pitch my idea for the campaign(s). to you guys for a bit of proofreading and criticism.

First. I already mentioned that darn lake, right? Well... wait one second need to go to Rinkworks to find a good random fantasy name for a town. Okay there we go. Golianus. Sounds ancient enough.
It was a town of peaceful Fishermen and artisans making pottery from the clay mines.
then the lake which supplied their lifestyle of peace started to dry up.
Thinking fast, it was decreed that all the water be pumped into canisters and dispersed among each villager to preserve the water without using it.
For hundreds of years villagers would recieve one small drop at adulthood, and gain more if their trade helped out more.
Mages studied it and put it on their scepters.
Warriors had it placed in a hollow in the hilt of their sword.
All was prosperous .
But such never lasts long.

Several villagers misused their magic-amplifying drop.

[*]One town butcher, the leader of the guild, accidentally chopped off a hand.
As he lay dying of blood loss, he started laughing. and poured the irretrevable drop on his severed stump. It saved his life, but the townsfolk could not forgive him for using it. and he was banished. He was cooking and cutting one day and went mad, fitting his cleaver to his stump and mutilating wildlife. He stiched them together and they were alive. Hearing of the power, more trained under the butcher, named Maer, cutting off their hands and pouring their drops on too.

A man, grieving his wife's loss, desired to bring her back to talk to. He thought of the power ascribed to his and her drop, mixed it with a lock of her hair, and the concoction bubbled and screamed. Fearing what he had heard, he put it in a wineskin and locked it in a box, which he kept on the mantel. Curious about the box, others asked about the contents, opening it and hearing the screaming. He was sent from the village with nothing but a cane and the box. He felt he must have gotten the wrong soul. She never would have been screaming... no... he would go and pull souls from everywhere with this box and use the souls for seeking vengaence on the town

[AI]

Link to 1.0 cockactrice: http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/tags/1.0 ... atrice.cfg

[MaxRip]

Thanks. I am glad I had the image already.
If you play with the name AI does it ever confuse scenarios with enemy sides being controlled by AIs with ID:AI1 or such? Just wondering.

[Rhishisikk]

Confused.

You need Necro and Bio GROUPS, or units for specific factions? Need sleep, so not wanting to go into details. But several units already spring into mind.

[AI]

Thanks. I am glad I had the image already.
If you play with the name AI does it ever confuse scenarios with enemy sides being controlled by AIs with ID:AI1 or such? Just wondering.

Well, the name 'AI' is reserved for actual computer players, so I use 'AI0867' on the MP server. (and IRC, and for my email)

[dontano]

Hmm... I'm quite interested. Maybe, when Dark Century is done I'll take a look on your work.

[Mica]

This is a good idea, I'd be very interested in using some of these units (and there art) for some things. Though that'd be much later on, perhaps if some of these finish soon, I could even make a character out of them... Possibly the Sand Sculptor line more so than the others.

[Rhishisikk]

Unit concepts:
Geomancer
Gravel (uses swarm) -> Shifting earth -> Landslide
-> Sandslide (diff terrain type, maybe deserthome) -> Sand Pit (slows)
Or maybe other way around, start with sand and grow into larger stones.

Glass Golem -> Glass Warrior -> Glass Soldier
Low HP and damage, but inflicts bleeding (poison), or maybe just using blade instead of blunt makes it special enough.

Rolling Stone -> Boulder
Few attacks, but high damage, resistance, and HP

Crystal Being -> Crystal Maiden -> Crystal Lady
-> Crystal Spider -> Widowmaker
-> Prism (illuminates)
Again, not so many HP as the rocks, but should have something that makes them special. (I see crystal as being more magical than stone, but no need for two wizard units. Maybe marksman or magical melee attacks, or a shining aura similar to Dark Elf Witch's Dark Aura.)

Botanimancers
I see wose as perhaps being against this branch of magic, but if they support it, be sure to include Wose Shaman.

Sunflowers (swarm, ranged fire) -> Sunflower Patch

Mantrap (low move, few attacks that slow) -> Deathtrap

Moss (poison, swarm) -> Smothering Moss (feeding) -> Blood Moss
-> Mold (rot, a poison-like affliction that affects undead also)

Seaweed (naval unit) -> Kelp (slows) -> Sargasso

Aquamancers
Ice Stalker -> Ice Horror (plague to frozen one) -> Ice slayer
-> Frost Man (slows) -> Frostbite Walker

Steam Spirit (fire attacks, many but low damage) -> Steam Cloud -> Steam Bank
-> Sauna (heals) -> Healing Mist (cures, heals)

Undertow -> Riptide (berzerk) -> Whirlpool
-> Current -> Tsunami (better land movement)

Soulbinders
Haunting Light (L0) -> Will O Wisp (from Warg, Era of Myth)
-> Ghost series
Easy to recruit, easy to kill, possibly easy to level. But a pure haunting light wave should fall to an equal value of 'normal' units.

Despairing One -> Soul Collector -> Manipulator
-> Weeping One (fear aura)
Soul Collector and manipulator should have a 'power attack' that they can only use while carrying a soul. Or just plague (Haunting Light).

Restless -> Poltergeist (swarm)-> Grand Poltergeist (regen)
-> Angry Spirit -> Raging Spirit (berserk)
Possibly focus or charge instead of berserk, gained at Angry Spirit level

Flesh Artisans
Blood Walker (bleeding) -> Blood Hulk -> Blood Colossus
Possibly plague (Blood Spill, L0, promotes to Blood Walker)

Stitched (WC thing) -> Sewn Man -> Sewn Lord (leadership)
-> Overstitched (four arms, more attacks) -> Kali Doll

Disease Walker (infect) -> Plague Walker
INFECT should be less damaging than poison (2 or 4 HP), but infected units infect units adjacent to them during pre-round maintenance (AFTER infection damage dealt). Units that cure are immune, as are UD. Cure happens AFTER infection spread (otherwise cured units may become re-infected)

Bone Builders
Thickbones -> Skull Masher -> Gargantuan
Fewer attacks than skellie, but sturdier and high damage (similar to Loyalist Heavy Infantry, but HI should be superior.)

Bone Pet (L0) -> Bone Puma -> Wildbone Horror
-> Bone Dog -> Bone Hound

Knucklebones (swarm, slows) -> Bone Pile -> Bone Heap

Feel free to alter, mangle, bend/fold, spindle, and mutilate. Hope this helps, PM me when the Era is ready for testing.

[MaxRip]

Botanimancers
I see wose as perhaps being against this branch of magic, but if they support it, be sure to include Wose Shaman.

Well, I have to figure out for myself what wose are. Do we go by the tradtional preexisting lifeform of Wesnoth pre-human pre-elf?
Or with the newer Wose who were created by a shaman?
Self aware?
Not Self aware?
Are they truly made of plant matter?
Or just, as their original description suggests,

Rarely Seen by elves, the Wose is an order of creature about which little is known. The elves are the source of most of this knowledge; they know that these beings are not descended from trees, despite the similarity in form, and they know that a wose is more closely tied to the faerie world than the elves themselves, though in a different way. The motives and workings of their kind are unknown, though most subscribe to the obvious theory that woses are dedicated wardens of the natural world.
Woses are utterly unwarlike, but possess a great strength. They are, however, neither used to, nor quick at moving around.

Which would indicate being not at all of either.
I have a plan for Human Botanomancy and Elvish Shamanism to be closely tied, but differing too.

Geomancer
Gravel (uses swarm) -> Shifting earth -> Landslide
-> Sandslide (diff terrain type, maybe deserthome) -> Sand Pit (slows)
Or maybe other way around, start with sand and grow into larger stones.

Glass Golem -> Glass Warrior -> Glass Soldier
Low HP and damage, but inflicts bleeding (poison), or maybe just using blade instead of blunt makes it special enough.

Rolling Stone -> Boulder
Few attacks, but high damage, resistance, and HP

Crystal Being -> Crystal Maiden -> Crystal Lady
-> Crystal Spider -> Widowmaker
-> Prism (illuminates)
Again, not so many HP as the rocks, but should have something that makes them special. (I see crystal as being more magical than stone, but no need for two wizard units. Maybe marksman or magical melee attacks, or a shining aura similar to Dark Elf Witch's Dark Aura.)

I had completely forgotten about glass and crystal as part of it!
As for the growing from small rocks to large, I can see how as the creations are more experienced, the controller must also be expressing greater control and able to make larger things.
In the interest of KISS, I probably wont use the bleeding damage from the Glass Golem, cause, as you said, being the only blade is special enough. But it would have to have low HP, but higher damage.
Every Idea here looks good to me, and possible from a coding standpoint. One question, though, what would a Widowmaker look like?

Sunflowers (swarm, ranged fire) -> Sunflower Patch

Mantrap (low move, few attacks that slow) -> Deathtrap

Moss (poison, swarm) -> Smothering Moss (feeding) -> Blood Moss
-> Mold (rot, a poison-like affliction that affects undead also)

Seaweed (naval unit) -> Kelp (slows) -> Sargasso

I suppose the Sunflowers would also have a daytime advantage, or at the very least a night time disadvantage?
Man Trap, hmm... like an oversized venus flytrap? I see then... but to counterweigh the low move (which all plants would have anyways,) we would need an incredible terrain defense or high HP value.
how about
Fly trap ->Man Trap ->Deathtrap
(alternately)-> Sundew ->Alluring Devourer
so you can have one with higher move than the other
As for the moss...
Sorry to be picky on this but as undead can not be affected by poison and a major thing wesnoth does not need is a superpoison-like thing that affects everything. That would lead to superpoision proof units and so on. The poison resistance undead have is for a reason, remember

Bad idea: There should be an ability that cancels out Undead/Magic/Drain/etc.
Result: The developers feel that this would lead to an 'arms race' where eg. "Immunity to Poison" would result in the creation of "Super Poison that even effects the Immune", "Immunity to even Super-Poison" etc. resulting in 'levels' of abilities. The developers feel that this would add an unwanted complexity to the game.

and also coding something like that is really, really hard.
Plus mold is a fungus.
The seaweed unit is nice, as it would be good in naval situations, but if you have ordinary plants being controlled it is boring. and hard to explain the movement.
If we had a Seaweed Monster advancement for it... then that is a different story.
Good overall ideas there though.

Aquamancers
Ice Stalker -> Ice Horror (plague to frozen one) -> Ice slayer
-> Frost Man (slows) -> Frostbite Walker

Steam Spirit (fire attacks, many but low damage) -> Steam Cloud -> Steam Bank
-> Sauna (heals) -> Healing Mist (cures, heals)

Undertow -> Riptide (berzerk) -> Whirlpool
-> Current -> Tsunami (better land movement)

What is the frozen one that you speak of? Would it require several race variations(ala WC)?
I dont think a unit of a sauna or a healing mist makes sense, maybe as a dummy unit for campaign use but how exactly would you show a sauna fighting, exactly? Or show a sauna for that matter?
Undertow, riptide, current, tsunami, whirlpool, are these all names or controlled units? As names they sound awesome, but I mean, they dont make sense as units either. If they are water molded with magic into a form of a person , animal, etc, (like undine) then it makes more sense.
As for Ice stalker, coincidentally I already started coding for one with that name, and a Frozen Fighter too.

Soulbinders
Haunting Light (L0) -> Will O Wisp (from Warg, Era of Myth)
-> Ghost series
Easy to recruit, easy to kill, possibly easy to level. But a pure haunting light wave should fall to an equal value of 'normal' units.

Despairing One -> Soul Collector -> Manipulator
-> Weeping One (fear aura)
Soul Collector and manipulator should have a 'power attack' that they can only use while carrying a soul. Or just plague (Haunting Light).

Restless -> Poltergeist (swarm)-> Grand Poltergeist (regen)
-> Angry Spirit -> Raging Spirit (berserk)
Possibly focus or charge instead of berserk, gained at Angry Spirit level

If I could FIND the folder where the Era of myth is hiding its units then it would be easier to look at the coding and the image, but it still eludes me, like a few other add-on folders I have that I am using images/units from.
Man, are my credits and thanks to sections gonna be huge...
I am not gonna bother with any more quotes for the time being.
On to Flesh artisans...
Again, bleeding as a poison like thing, sorry not gonna use it.
Stiched looks good, already started on coding. Ran into trouble cause its entire advancement tree will have complicated graphics and different variations due to that primary Plague, (which I may just take out instead anyways.
Okay. now the bone builders

I am pondering having dinosaur skeletons and such from fossils.
Like the ideas keep em coming.
I am about 5 units in that actually work so far. (minus non stick figure graphics in some cases)

[Mica]

Woses creation is unknown, it could be very much like elves and dwarves and humans (possibility of just "always existing"). But it's not important.

Woses are self-aware, they usually live in forests, and are made of the same material that trees are, just not descended from trees.

[MaxRip]

So far so good with coding. I have half of "flesh artisans", Boneyard builders, and Soul Trappers.
Three units of botanomancers, aquamancers, and geomancers. Havent tested em out yet, but hopefully it will work out.

Keep up ideas.

I need to write a movetype file for the elemental things. I also made a mechanical walking spider tower if I should make two mechanical factions.