Minotaur Faction : The Era Of Strife

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Slug
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Slug » March 25th, 2008, 7:34 pm

Hi there - I'm really interested in this faction and think that it has a lot of potential so me and some friends decided to play test it earlier today vs the default factions.

Some things we noticed:

For some reasons Eagles caused OOS's in our games when two Minotaur players used them. We couldn't figure out why as the recruited traits were always the same and the outcome of each fight was but they consistently caused OOS for everyone else in the game (we played a 4p game).

Overall the faction definatly needs some balance changes - as of now it is extremely overpowered - specifically:

The centaur unit and the shaman seem perfect for there cost and role and don't really need any changes that we could see.

The gnoll for 15g is an absolute monster who is almost comparable to an elvish ranger - and at night is better. I think the mp needs to be toned down a bit to have mountains and hills count as 2 moves not one. Also its bow is not only extremely powerful but not wholly in keeping with a Minotaur unit. Having more powerful but less shots e.g. 6-3 would fit the faction more and balance the unit a bit better.

The gore for 17g is also really really powerful. A game can easily be won by just spamming these units alone. I think to keep them at 17g they need to do damage closer to 8-3 then 7-4 they currently have also with slightly lower defence values e.g. 10 percent lower or so. Also even though it has only 4 mp it is quite manovorable because it counts most terrain as 1 mp. Like the gnoll it should possibly count hills as 2 mp terrain.

The Eagle can one shot drakes at night easily - to fix this i suggest making it neutral(as has been previously stated by others) and also lowering its charge dmg by 1 or 2.

The berserker could do with lower defence values as right now it can beat any fighter unit easily from a forest even a clasher at day it has no problem with. I realise it is a costly unit but its high hp and dmg should count towards that - lower def values would also fit in with the rest of the Minotaur's.
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I hope you take these suggestions as what they are - just ideas to give you hand with balance. Like i already said i think its a great faction and i especially enjoy the artwork. Keep up the good work :-)

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Quietus
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Quietus » March 25th, 2008, 9:26 pm

Slug wrote:Hi there - I'm really interested in this faction and think that it has a lot of potential so me and some friends decided to play test it earlier today vs the default factions.

Some things we noticed:

For some reasons Eagles caused OOS's in our games when two Minotaur players used them. We couldn't figure out why as the recruited traits were always the same and the outcome of each fight was but they consistently caused OOS for everyone else in the game (we played a 4p game).

Overall the faction definatly needs some balance changes - as of now it is extremely overpowered - specifically:

The centaur unit and the shaman seem perfect for there cost and role and don't really need any changes that we could see.

The gnoll for 15g is an absolute monster who is almost comparable to an elvish ranger - and at night is better. I think the mp needs to be toned down a bit to have mountains and hills count as 2 moves not one. Also its bow is not only extremely powerful but not wholly in keeping with a Minotaur unit. Having more powerful but less shots e.g. 6-3 would fit the faction more and balance the unit a bit better.

The gore for 17g is also really really powerful. A game can easily be won by just spamming these units alone. I think to keep them at 17g they need to do damage closer to 8-3 then 7-4 they currently have also with slightly lower defence values e.g. 10 percent lower or so. Also even though it has only 4 mp it is quite manovorable because it counts most terrain as 1 mp. Like the gnoll it should possibly count hills as 2 mp terrain.

The Eagle can one shot drakes at night easily - to fix this i suggest making it neutral(as has been previously stated by others) and also lowering its charge dmg by 1 or 2.

The berserker could do with lower defence values as right now it can beat any fighter unit easily from a forest even a clasher at day it has no problem with. I realise it is a costly unit but its high hp and dmg should count towards that - lower def values would also fit in with the rest of the Minotaur's.
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I hope you take these suggestions as what they are - just ideas to give you hand with balance. Like i already said i think its a great faction and i especially enjoy the artwork. Keep up the good work :-)

Thanks for putting the time in for playtesting :D . The eagle issue has been raised before. I havnt really used them that much but ive been told its a monster at night, especially against undead. As for the other issues, im sure Espreon will take the time to fix them. I agree with the gore, i found it just to powerful in some scenarios.

I noticed the OOS on multiplayer as well. Though we couldnt figure out what it was :?

Again thanks for the feedback, hopefully these should be changed in the next release.

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Espreon
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Espreon » March 25th, 2008, 9:49 pm

Quietus wrote:
Thanks for putting the time in for playtesting :D . The eagle issue has been raised before. I havnt really used them that much but ive been told its a monster at night, especially against undead. As for the other issues, im sure Espreon will take the time to fix them. I agree with the gore, i found it just to powerful in some scenarios.

I noticed the OOS on multiplayer as well. Though we couldnt figure out what it was :?

Again thanks for the feedback, hopefully these should be changed in the next release.
Don't worry Quietus they will be fixed once I get my Ubuntu 7.10 install workin again.

As for you Slug: Thanks for taking the time to play test these, your suggestions will really help me balance these beasts. Also what does OOS mean? As for your compliments on the artwork I assume you enjoyed my recolored haloes.

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Quietus
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Quietus » March 25th, 2008, 9:53 pm

Espreon wrote: Also what does OOS mean?
Out of Sync

Basically an error message that appears when playing online if someone has "edited" the files. I tend to get it if the other player doesnt have the same version add-on as I. I dont know how to fix it =S

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Espreon
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Espreon » March 25th, 2008, 9:55 pm

Quietus wrote:
Espreon wrote: Also what does OOS mean?
Out of Sync

Basically an error message that appears when playing online if someone has "edited" the files. I tend to get it if the other player doesnt have the same version add-on as I. I dont know how to fix it =S
Me neither, you should put info on the main page to encourage people to use the latest version due to this. I am not an uber coder. I am coding to learn how to do so and to have fun.

Slug
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Slug » March 25th, 2008, 10:46 pm

Espreon wrote:
Quietus wrote: Out of Sync

Basically an error message that appears when playing online if someone has "edited" the files. I tend to get it if the other player doesn't have the same version add-on as I. I dont know how to fix it =S
Me neither, you should put info on the main page to encourage people to use the latest version due to this. I am not an uber coder. I am coding to learn how to do so and to have fun.
The reason i thought to bring it up was that everyone playing definatly had the same version - we all downloaded it within 2 minutes or so of each other and that it caused no visible changes to the game. In the past i have noticed OOS's being caused by when one player recruits a unit with certain traits but other people see different traits to them. I think an OOS is literally one player has a different version of events in game to the other players / host. I have no idea why they occurred in our game though - as i said it was with specific regards to the eagle unit - due to the fact that every players version of events seemed the same. Perhaps the eagle you are using is based off code from another era that we may not have all had the same version of??? Next time it comes up I'll copy down exactly what the error message says.

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Espreon
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Espreon » March 25th, 2008, 10:51 pm

Slug wrote:The reason i thought to bring it up was that everyone playing definatly had the same version - we all downloaded it within 2 minutes or so of each other and that it caused no visible changes to the game. In the past i have noticed OOS's being caused by when one player recruits a unit with certain traits but other people see different traits to them. I think an OOS is literally one player has a different version of events in game to the other players / host. I have no idea why they occurred in our game though - as i said it was with specific regards to the eagle unit - due to the fact that every players version of events seemed the same. Perhaps the eagle you are using is based off code from another era that we may not have all had the same version of??? Next time it comes up I'll copy down exactly what the error message says.
Well I based the Eagle off of of one of my units which were based off a mainline unit. Maybe I should examine the Eagle's .cfg when I get my Ubuntu 7.10 up and running. Do you have similar problems with the Roc?

Slug
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Slug » March 25th, 2008, 11:11 pm

Espreon wrote: Well I based the Eagle off of of one of my units which were based off a mainline unit. Maybe I should examine the Eagle's .cfg when I get my Ubuntu 7.10 up and running. Do you have similar problems with the Roc?
We didn't actually get a eagle levelled up to a roc - I'll try it as a leader next game i am in with them.

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Espreon
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Espreon » March 25th, 2008, 11:24 pm

Slug wrote: We didn't actually get a eagle levelled up to a roc - I'll try it as a leader next game i am in with them.
Thank you for playtesting this era vigorously!

Darth Jordius
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Darth Jordius » March 26th, 2008, 11:05 am

Slug wrote: We didn't actually get a eagle levelled up to a roc - I'll try it as a leader next game i am in with them.
Unless Espreon gets Ubuntu working and removes them from the leader pick first... besides, you can just play Minotaur AoH and recruit one.
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Check out Quietus's Minotaurs!

Darth Jordius
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Darth Jordius » March 26th, 2008, 11:21 am

Darth Jordius wrote:
Slug wrote: We didn't actually get a eagle levelled up to a roc - I'll try it as a leader next game i am in with them.
Unless Espreon gets Ubuntu working and removes them from the leader pick first... besides, you can just play Minotaur AoH and recruit one.
Q, I also agree with Slug on the Gore, reduce it to 7-3 or 8-3 and for goodness sakes give it 5 MP! These guys are so hard to use against drakes, other than pure shaman spam. :annoyed:

Also, I think you need to spend some time balancing the level 2 Minotaurs, some of them are just too powerful. The mystic is great, but hardly worth anything compared to the Warlock except MP. Maybe weaken the Warlock's ranged a little bit, he seems too powerful right now. The two damage types assure he'll do major damage to anything. :twisted:

Also, about the Gnoll. I disagree with weakening him any further. He may be a killer at night, but drake burners are killers at day too. That's kinda the point. However, I would weaken his HP one or two points, or else raise the cost one or two gold.
Quiz wrote:You are a Dwarvish Fighter. You're surly and handy with an axe. Go chop some trees.
Check out Quietus's Minotaurs!

megane
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by megane » March 26th, 2008, 1:35 pm

Darth Jordius wrote:Also, about the Gnoll. I disagree with weakening him any further. He may be a killer at night, but drake burners are killers at day too. That's kinda the point. However, I would weaken his HP one or two points, or else raise the cost one or two gold.
Drake Burners also cost 9 more gold, and are easy to kill.
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Valenwood
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Valenwood » March 26th, 2008, 2:41 pm

Hi folks!
Me and Slug decided to further investigate the Eagle and Roc, so we hosted up a game and fooled around with the units a bit, both of us getting various OOS messages while recruiting and attacking with these two units. After the game was finished, I decided it was time to actually check out your .cfg files for these units, and so I did. It seems like these units are supposed to have a ability called DIVINE_SKIRMISHER, which is not defined in abilities.cfg. Maybe you were intending to give them ABILITY_SKIRMISHER, but accidently typed ABILITY_DIVINE_SKIRMISHER instead? Either that, or you must just have forgot to define the ability. Either way, I think this might be a reason for them creating OOS messages.

Further more, I definately think you should balance the Eagle and Roc ;) Definately make them neutral, and lower their damage on -all- attacks, maybe even removing the slow effect from their boulder drop? Think of a troll rocklobber, with more moves, more damage and a slow effect :) And I do not think Eagle and Roc should be skirmishers either, since the Mino faction already has a skirmisher unit.

Just my two cents :) Keep the good work up!

EDIT: I also happen to think these units have way too high defence in various terrain. Aren't minotaurs supposed to be big and bulky, and not so nimble? 60% should really be their highest, in -any- terrain, and the Behemoth should have a max of 50%, in my humble opinion. The Gnoll should not have any 70% defences, and either have their gold cost increased, or their damage lowered.

Don't hate me :)

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Quietus
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Quietus » March 26th, 2008, 3:16 pm

Valenwood wrote:Hi folks!
Me and Slug decided to further investigate the Eagle and Roc, so we hosted up a game and fooled around with the units a bit, both of us getting various OOS messages while recruiting and attacking with these two units. After the game was finished, I decided it was time to actually check out your .cfg files for these units, and so I did. It seems like these units are supposed to have a ability called DIVINE_SKIRMISHER, which is not defined in abilities.cfg. Maybe you were intending to give them ABILITY_SKIRMISHER, but accidently typed ABILITY_DIVINE_SKIRMISHER instead? Either that, or you must just have forgot to define the ability. Either way, I think this might be a reason for them creating OOS messages.
That is most probably it :D thanks for pointing that out.

Valenwood wrote:Further more, I definately think you should balance the Eagle and Roc ;) Definately make them neutral, and lower their damage on -all- attacks, maybe even removing the slow effect from their boulder drop? Think of a troll rocklobber, with more moves, more damage and a slow effect :) And I do not think Eagle and Roc should be skirmishers either, since the Mino faction already has a skirmisher unit.

Just my two cents :) Keep the good work up!
Yeash i think the eagle is planning to be balanced the next version. Neutral appears to be the right way to go, as well as a damage reduction. As for the skirmisher ability being removed, i think i would have to disagree. A flyer would definately ignore any form of ZOC. I think the Forest raider should loose it if anything.
Valenwood wrote: EDIT: I also happen to think these units have way too high defence in various terrain. Aren't minotaurs supposed to be big and bulky, and not so nimble? 60% should really be their highest, in -any- terrain, and the Behemoth should have a max of 50%, in my humble opinion. The Gnoll should not have any 70% defences, and either have their gold cost increased, or their damage lowered.
Im sure defensive values can be lowered for some units. Definately the Behemoth as he is a berserker. I wanted to give him an ability called Blooddrunk (courtesy of the new Children Of Bodom album :P ) The idea being that on the attack, his flurry of blows give him 50% on any terrain. However when being shot at this is reduces to 30% as he is reckless and happy to run out into the open to attack the shooter.

Just an idea really. The gnoll is going to have 70% on marsh/swamp definately. He ambushes in the swarm therefore should get 70%, as the history of them is that they lived in the swamps. Maybe reduce some defence on the mountains and plains?

Overal as this is going to be a large update i think a post should be written giving a list of exactly what should be changed. Otherwise poor Espreon is going to ahve to search through pages to get everything lol. Ill post the main on the first page for Espreon to find, but suggestions as to what the stats should be are up to you so suggest suggest suggest :geek:

Oh and Valenwood we dont hate you lol, people like you and slug help this faction progress 8) tyvm

EDIT: ive seriously updated the first page, it now has a few more things on it =]

Just a note i wont be on here very often for the next few days. This si because i have apiano recital i must practise for. So the majority of time will be put into that. As of friday i should be free again to continue work on the Minotaurs. Keep playtesting and thanks for feedback.

Valenwood
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Re: Minotaur faction : 0.1.8 on add-ons list

Post by Valenwood » March 26th, 2008, 3:42 pm

Hehe :) We will keep playtesting!

About the Eagle/Roc and skirmisher. Sure, if you remove skirmisher from the other mino, I guess it's okay for the Eagle/Roc to have it :)

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