Darklands MP

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Darklands MP

Post by Casual User » August 15th, 2007, 8:32 pm

Basic Idea

There was, a little while back, a discussion on a possible 'vampire faction', and I explicited my idea of a faction of dark, ruthless warlords and his thuggish troops. The faction there seems to have been left unattended, so I'd like to recuperate the 'Dark Lords' concept for a quick faction.

Rather, than re-write the flavor text, I'll quote myself:
I wrote:An idea that hasn't been exploited at all, though, is that of the Dark Lord, who would be a warlord in the full sense of the word but a ruthless and thuggish one, surrounded by ruffian armies of dark knights and cruel footmen, and somewhat steeped in the Black Arts...
Units

Code: Select all

Wolf -> Dire Wolf -> Demon Wolf

Archer -> Soldier
       -> Forester

Swordsman -> Henchman

Strongman -> Giant

Dark Rider -> Dark Knight
           -> Possessed Knight -> Demon Knight

Dark Noble -> Dark Lord -> Demon Lord
           -> Warlock
Wolf, LVL 0, 14HP, 7MP, chaotic, woodland, recruit : 10g
Jaws (blade) : 3-3 marksman

Dire Wolf, LVL 1, 24HP, 7MP, chaotic, woodland
Jaws (blade) : 4-4 marksman
Howl (cold) : 4-2 marksman

Demon Wolf, LVL2, 38HP, 7MP, chaotic, woodland
Jaws (blade) : 5-5 marksman
Howl (cold) : 5-3 marksman

Description : Basically, a cheap little LVL0 scout, excellent in forests, has marksman attacks to represent their ability to track down ennemies.

Archer, LVL1, 36HP, 5MP, neutral, smallfoot, recruit : 12g
Sword (blade) : 4-3
Bow (pierce) : 6-2
Bow (fire) : 6-2

Soldier, LVL2, 52HP, 5MP, neutral, smallfoot
Sword (blade) : 5-4
Bow (pierce) : 7-3
Bow (fire) : 7-3

Forester, LVL1, 48HP, 5MP, neutral, woodland
Sword (blade) : 4-4
Bow (pierce) : 6-3

Description : The rank-and-file infantryman of your armies, his attacks are overall fairly weak, but the low cost, decent HP and wide array of damage types make him useful in nearly all situations.

Henchman, LVL1, 28HP, 6MP, chaotic, skirmisher, elusivefoot, recruit : 14g
Sword (blade) : 5-3

Bladesman, LVL2, 42HP, 6MP, chaotic, skirmisher, elusivefoot
Sword (blade) : 6-4

Description : More or less like a chaotic fencer, cannot get 'resilient' trait but can get 'fearless' trait.

Strongman, LVL1, 42HP, 5MP, neutral, largefoot, recruit : 18g
Axe (blade) : 18-1

Giant, LVL2, 64HP, 5MP, neutral, largefoot
Axe (blade) : 28-1

Description : Big, mean, dumb guy with big, heavy axe. Has additional 20% resistance to impact. Deals extremely big blows, but has great drawbacks. Cannot get the 'intelligent' trait, 'strong' trait grants +2 damage.

Dark Rider, LVL1, 38HP, 8MP, chaotic, mounted, recruit : 22g
Spear (pierce) : 8-2 charge fearsome

Dark Knight, LVL2, 50HP, 8MP, chaotic, mounted
Spear (pierce) : 13-2 charge fearsome

Possessed Knight, LVL2, 54HP, 8MP, chaotic, mounted
Spear (pierce) : 10-2 charge fearsome
Fire (fire) : 5-3

Demon Knight, LVL3, 72HP, 8MP, chaotic, mounted
Spear (pierce) : 12-2 charge fearsome
Fire (fire) : 8-3

Description : Your heavy cavalry, has an innate 20% resistance to cold. Possessed Knight and Demon Knight gain extra 20% resistance to cold and fire, but has 20% weakness to arcane. Fearsome is a weapon special that makes the unit take 25% less damage from units of equal level and 50% less damage from units of lower level, making the riders excellent to use against melee fighters of lower level.

Dark Noble, LVL1, 34HP, 4MP, chaotic, armoredfoot, recruit : 24g
Mace (impact) : 6-3
Curse (cold) : 4-2 slow

Warlock, LVL2, 44HP, 4MP, chaotic, armoredfoot
Mace (impact) : 6-3
Curse (cold) : 4-6 slow

Dark Lord, LVL2, 50HP, 4MP, chaotic, armoredfoot
Mace (impact) : 9-3
Curse (cold) : 4-2 slow

Demon Lord, LVL3, 68HP, 4MP, chaotic, armoredfoot
Mace (impact) : 10-4
Curse (cold) : 4-3 slow

Description : Heavy infantry / mage, very resistant to physical ranged attacks, using slowing curse amounts to a sort of leadership (leading the attack against an ennemy).

The Art

Well, all but the Rider and Noble line have placeholder art. They are all chepo edits of mainline or add-on units, but they'll do for now.
Attachments
Darklands.png
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Last edited by Casual User on August 28th, 2007, 2:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.

playtom
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Post by playtom » August 16th, 2007, 3:07 am

raw ideas like this has many flaws, allow me to help you:
Archer, LVL1, 34HP, 5MP, neutral, smallfoot, recruit : 12g
Sword (blade) : 4-3
Bow (pierce) : 6-2
Bow (fire) : 6-2

Soldier, LVL2, 50HP, 5MP, neutral, smallfoot
Sword (blade) : 5-4
Bow (pierce) : 7-3
Bow (fire) : 7-3

Forester, LVL1, 46HP, 5MP, neutral, woodland
Sword (blade) : 4-4
Bow (pierce) : 6-3
can you tell me why the archer has all same attacks?the soldier has better range attack than melee?it seems the archer can advance to soldier, a much better unit than forester in HP and attacks, why?the archer advanced to forester even though they're the same level?
Strongman, LVL1, 42HP, 5MP, neutral, largefoot, recruit : 18g
Axe (blade) : 16-1

Giant, LVL2, 64HP, 5MP, neutral, largefoot
Axe (blade) : 25-1
i don't think this unit will even be used in a battle, only 1 rounds of attack, and the total damage 25 is slightly less for a lvl 2. compared to HI the giant is thumbs down
Dark Noble, LVL1, 36HP, 4MP, chaotic, armoredfoot, recruit : 24g
Mace (impact) : 6-3
Curse (cold) : 3-2 slow

Warlock, LVL2, 48HP, 4MP, chaotic, armoredfoot
Mace (impact) : 6-3
Curse (cold) : 3-6 slow

Dark Lord, LVL2, 52HP, 4MP, chaotic, armoredfoot
Mace (impact) : 9-3
Curse (cold) : 3-2 slow

Demon Lord, LVL3, 68HP, 4MP, chaotic, armoredfoot
Mace (impact) : 10-4
Curse (cold) : 3-3 slow
really, you should remove the name"lord"if you consider not to give him leadership, it's common sense that a "lord"unit have leadership. slow curse is used by desert prowler, but theres nowhere in the description saying he/she has any leadership potentials.

overall, this is a very weak faction, no units can deal more than 30 damage, except the lvl 3 demon lord. rather puny compared to their counterparts.

don't expect this to make to the mainlines, it's all copied off ideas from other factions
evolved around the confined environment, emotions, knowledge and events mixed into my life, mere mortal am i, trying to climb higher up the ladder, time passes, just then i realized, death will part me eventually. - playtom's philosophy

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Post by Casual User » August 16th, 2007, 3:46 pm

First of all, there is now placeholder art for all of the units. It's not great, but it's okay.

Given the quick finish of art, I'll allow one or two more days to do some very rough balancing, and then I plan to release.

A first balancing decision is already done:

The weapon special of the dark rider, "fearsome charge", has been changed as follows : on attack, he deals twice the damage but also receives twice the damage from ennemies of same or superior level.

I've reduced the power of fearsome to avoid making him too powerful.

And a quick reply to playtom:
playtom wrote:can you tell me why the archer has all same attacks?the soldier has better range attack than melee?it seems the archer can advance to soldier, a much better unit than forester in HP and attacks, why?the archer advanced to forester even though they're the same level?
The archer has twice the bow attack because one is pierce and one is fire (flaming arrows). I fail to see why the soldier couldn't have better range than melee, but if you factor in the 50% chance of the soldier being strong, both he and the archer actually deal a little less at range than in melee, and the forester deals exactly the same amount of damage.

The forester is indeed LVL2, that was a typo. The forester is weaker than the soldier, but his movetype gives him 1mp and 70% defense in forests.
playtom wrote:i don't think this unit will even be used in a battle, only 1 rounds of attack, and the total damage 25 is slightly less for a lvl 2. compared to HI the giant is thumbs down
Not having play-tested them yet, I can't tell you for a fact how useful they are, but the ablity to deal 16 damage in one blow (18 if strong) without taking excessive damage back would be quite interesting for a specialty unit.

Combine that with his 42 hitpoints (excellent for LVL1) and his 5.67 movement, and I think it makes for an interesting unit.

As for the giant, he can kill saurians, fencers, thieves, footpads, mages, gobbos, WCs, etc... with one blow, won't take too much damage and has a hefty 64HP. I think it would make for an interesting unit, but indeed not a backbone one. It's a specialty unit.
playtom wrote:really, you should remove the name"lord"if you consider not to give him leadership, it's common sense that a "lord"unit have leadership. slow curse is used by desert prowler, but theres nowhere in the description saying he/she has any leadership potentials.
You mean like the Dwarvish and Elvish lords?

Naming "Lord" doesn't force you to put leadership. However, it does seem to me like the slowing curse creates a leadership-like behavior, wherein your noble attacks first and then you pound with your other units.
playtom wrote:don't expect this to make to the mainlines, it's all copied off ideas from other factions
No faction has been added to mainline since the Drakes, and that was around 0.8 or something. Not my goal, and it shouldn't be anyone's goal in making a faction.

That being said, which ideas have I copied?

If Sean decides to work on the Vampires some more and feels my faction's structure is too similar, I'll concede him primacy and take the faction off whatever server it would be at that point, but I personally feel they are quite different as it is.

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Post by playtom » August 16th, 2007, 7:31 pm

That being said, which ideas have I copied?
first off, the knights and the swordsman, a copy from the loyalist, archer/forester, weak counterpart from the elvish ranger, strong man, mixed copy off from ogre/drawvish thunderer. the wolf and the dark noble has no direct counterparts, the only thing that could relate to them is the orcish wolf rider for the wolf and desert prowler/orcish warlord for the dark noble.

markman ability to trackdown enemy(it should be an accurate/stilled attack) i'd go with the farsight ability/sighting pointsif you want to make sense to people for the wolf to track down enemy.

slow for leadership(should be only an assist for combat, to cripple enemy then kill it) still don't make any sense to me......
As for the giant, he can kill saurians, fencers, thieves, footpads, mages, gobbos, WCs, etc... with one blow, won't take too much damage and has a hefty 64HP. I think it would make for an interesting unit, but indeed not a backbone one. It's a specialty unit.
you have the knight for this purpose. if the giant missed, he will take hefty retaliation! and also he has no alternative attacks unlike a knight(sword) or drawvish thunderer(dagger), nor have alot of MP, unless you make him super powerful and give him marksman, this unit is useless.

also, you should make each and everyone of your unit unique, maybe some poison/drain, nightstalk, etc...
evolved around the confined environment, emotions, knowledge and events mixed into my life, mere mortal am i, trying to climb higher up the ladder, time passes, just then i realized, death will part me eventually. - playtom's philosophy

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TL
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Post by TL » August 17th, 2007, 2:43 am

Hmm. You've got a swordsman and a giant, but where's the funny little bald guy who's not as clever as he thinks he is?

I like the feel of this faction, but playtom did raise a point you don't seem to have addressed: namely, there's really no damage output here. There's some good defensive potential here, but this faction is going to have massive trouble trying to push through enemy units; the rider helps but there are many units they'd be ineffective against. The combination of nobles + riders for slow + charge would be of some help, but you have to count on getting at least one hit in from each (with only 2 swings for either unit) and it still wouldn't help you against anything with significant pierce resistance.

The only unit that I think may be lacking on its own merits is the strongman. Compared to a young ogre you're paying 20% more gold and getting 20% impact resistance and very little else. So if you're fighting an impact-only unit you're breaking even compared to the young ogre (which is itself probably slightly on the underpowered side); against anything else you're pretty much losing out in spite of slightly higher damage potential. Fewer but harder swings is slightly preferable to more but weaker swings due to the fact that you get your attacks off earlier in the fight, but is still not worth quite that much much.

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Post by Rhuvaen » August 17th, 2007, 9:25 am

playtom wrote:you should make each and everyone of your unit unique, maybe some poison/drain, nightstalk, etc...
I think that's the perfect recipe to prevent your faction from being included in any era. Those abilities should be used sparingly, and no faction should try to cover too many different abilities. From what I see here, there are already front-line melee units with specials like fearsome and slow. Adding poison or drain (both of which are very powerful) into the mix would just be too much.

That said, I agree about the Strongman/Giant. Perhaps giving him firststrike (due to his reach) would be interesting, it would not make much of a difference since he only has one attack, but give any melee attackers second thoughts...

Overall, this surprises me positively. A faction named "Dark Lords" sounds terribly stale at first, and the quality of most faction threads on the first page is, well, not exciting. But this composition is interesting while not overdone, and the concept is clearly quite useful and not too exotic (actually, I'd think the less "demonic" you made these units, the better). It would be fun if these found a place in a specific setting in Wesnoth - they might be useful as "evil" campaign adversaries (for not just re-using orcs/undead all the time).

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Post by Casual User » August 20th, 2007, 5:39 am

First of all, I've improved (I think) the artwork a little to make it more palatable in-game.

The Dark Knights look way better now with the blacker horse (still not great though), and the wolves, while less original now, look much much better.

Check out the first post for the updated art.


Second of all, I've renamed the "Swordsman" -> "Henchman" line into "Henchman" -> "Bladesman".

I'm thinking of re-naming the strongman, but I can't think of a good name.


Third of all, after some play-testing, I've done a quick re-balance of the unit stats. The stats in the first message have been updated to the latest re-balancing, so check it if you wish for all details, but most importantly:
- Beefed up archer line HPs a little
- Decreased henchmen cost to 14gp
- Increased Strongman -> Giant damage to 18-1 and 28-1 respectively
- Increased Dark Rider's cost to 22gp
- Increased damage of curse attack for nobles but reduced HPs a little


Fourth of all, while I had planned to release the first version today, I've been having trouble getting the "fearsome charge" weapon special to work.

First release should be whithin next week.

-------------------------------------------------------------

A few short answers:
Rhuvaen wrote:That said, I agree about the Strongman/Giant. Perhaps giving him firststrike (due to his reach) would be interesting
Interesting indeed. For now, I've increased their attack power a little, and from having played with them, I think they're quite mighty as long as you use them properly (and sparingly) - especially in hills and mountains.
Rhuvaen wrote:Overall, this surprises me positively. A faction named "Dark Lords" sounds terribly stale at first, and the quality of most faction threads on the first page is, well, not exciting. But this composition is interesting while not overdone, and the concept is clearly quite useful and not too exotic (actually, I'd think the less "demonic" you made these units, the better).
Thanks! I would, definitely, like to see some place made for them in the Wesnoth world, some time in the future.

I agree with you that the demonic aspect should be downplayed, which is why I've only "sprinkled" it on high-level and rare units. If you think it should be downplayed even more so (without actually disappearing), suggestions are welcomed...

As I haven't taken much time for it, I would like to take the opportunity and lay out the basic background I see for these guys:
Unlike Mainline's Undead, Neo's Chaos faction and the EOM's vampires, these aren't guys devoted to evil, either of a demonic or necromantic nature, but are merely ruthless, power-seeking (though often mere country barons) and cruel warlords.

The nobles know some dark magic picked up here and there, not because such is the nature their pursuits but because they find it useful and efficient. They are still basically warriors. They do not have specialized mages as they do not trust their underlings such powers, or such learning.

The wolves are tamed - or semi-tamed - wolves which they use in war, although one could assume their magical leanings - and preference for a primal and raw type of magic - might have helped them recruit such beasts.

They stock their armies with cheap, ready-made and versatile - if weak - footmen for cannonmeat. They are also willing to employ petty thugs and misshapen brutes as special troops, troops which they control due to a greater viciousness than theirs and the promise of riches.

Their prime companions, the dark knights, are knights whose viciousness and sadism has given them an aura of fear which follows them.

The demonic aspects appear due to their own actions, the sheer viciousness and cruelty which arises out of their own lusts and turns them further and further towards evil and cruelty, which is why only high-level troops - and only the most vicious of their troops - ever seem to become possessed.
TL wrote:Hmm. You've got a swordsman and a giant, but where's the funny little bald guy who's not as clever as he thinks he is?
Well, I'm not bald (yet), but...
TL wrote:There's some good defensive potential here, but this faction is going to have massive trouble trying to push through enemy units; the rider helps but there are many units they'd be ineffective against.
I've tweaked the stats a little, but I think you're selling the archers and strongmen short.

The archers deal little but fairly dependable damage and can hold a battle line -including an offensive one-. As for the strongman, with 16 (now 18 damage) in a blow, he can very easily break through a stalemate - without risking too much due to his toughness -. It's a gamble, but a good one.

To put it into perspective, where is the heavy offensive potential of the northerners?

Sure, LVL2 northerner units have good damage output, but they are very rare in MP where a faction usually lives and dies on its LVL1s.

And yet, none of the Northerner LVL1 units have more than 18 base damage. Does that mean the Northerner faction has no offensive capacity?
playtom wrote:first off, the knights and the swordsman, a copy from the loyalist, archer/forester, weak counterpart from the elvish ranger, strong man, mixed copy off from ogre/drawvish thunderer.
Swordsman is, indeed, copied off the fencer.

The knights, assuming I can get their weapon special to work right, will be quite different from loyalist ones as they will be units most effective in dealing with units of lower level than themselves.

The archer is very different from the elvish one. Elvish archers are expensive elite fighters. My archers are, well, read the description. Their usage as units would be quite different. The soldier/forester split is the only similarity, and it's not a great one at that.

As for the strong man, despite surface similarities to both the ogre and thunderer, his damage type and structure make him quite different.

Also, something you haven't noticed is a feature of this faction as a whole, namely that you have six unit lines and six different movetypes. AFAIK, no other faction has that peculiarity.

Well, that's quite enough of that! I'll post when I'll have more to post.

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Post by TL » August 20th, 2007, 7:25 am

Casual User wrote:
TL wrote:There's some good defensive potential here, but this faction is going to have massive trouble trying to push through enemy units; the rider helps but there are many units they'd be ineffective against.
I've tweaked the stats a little, but I think you're selling the archers and strongmen short.

The archers deal little but fairly dependable damage and can hold a battle line -including an offensive one-. As for the strongman, with 16 (now 18 damage) in a blow, he can very easily break through a stalemate - without risking too much due to his toughness -. It's a gamble, but a good one.

To put it into perspective, where is the heavy offensive potential of the northerners?

Sure, LVL2 northerner units have good damage output, but they are very rare in MP where a faction usually lives and dies on its LVL1s.

And yet, none of the Northerner LVL1 units have more than 18 base damage. Does that mean the Northerner faction has no offensive capacity?
Northerners do certainly have some problems on the offense, yes. Their major saving grace is that while they don't have any single power hitters (thus limiting their ability to punch through in small, concentrated areas), they have very inexpensive and cost-effective hitters who also have considerable endurance, letting them attack effectively along a wide front and giving them staying power in a war of attrition. Moreover, northerners have chaotic alignment working for their hitters (and lawful/chaotic is definitely advantageous over neutral when it comes to offensive potential). Grunts have 22 base damage at night, nearly double what archers are getting for the same price (and at half the cost of the dark noble, which has similar nighttime damage potential).

Archers are pretty damn good units for 12 gold, but they are only good for damage over time. When it comes to dealing damage right now, 12 damage doesn't cut it. That's worse than what a lawful/chaotic hitter can expect during their worst time of day. How often do you see northerners successfully assault and overcome enemy strongpoints during the day? Archers have even less offensive power than that.

Strongman? 18 gold for 18 damage? That is massively subpar for a melee hitter. Which is OK, because the strongman isn't a melee hitter; he's a tank, pure and simple, and with the 16->18 boost he looks like a pretty balanced tank. 18 damage is OK for wearing enemies down but it's not likely to score kills quickly. Getting one shot upfront is a nice gimmick and meshes well with the tank role, but doesn't work so well when it comes to breaching enemy defenses where the odds are you'll miss. "Crossing your fingers" does not constitute a viable offensive strategy.

Again it's not that there's anything wrong with the individual units of the faction, it's just that as far as the faction as a whole there is no solid melee grunt. Skeletons, spearmen, orc grunts, elvish/dwarvish/drake fighters... these are some of the most important staple units in the game and this faction has nothing comparable. Knalgans and drakes are pushing it somewhat with their basic melee units at 16 and 17g, but they make up for the drop-off in damage potential elsewhere, with thieves and ulfserkers and clashers and burners.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's possible to create a viable MP faction without a basic melee footsoldier unit. I'm not holding my breath, though.

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Post by Qes » August 20th, 2007, 8:09 am

I know vampirism gets tossed around as an idea for a faction quite a bit - but honestly your ideas look more like a vampire faction (sans name) than the others ive seen (or merely cared to puruse)

Consider renaming your Dark Noble Line - and making them the "vampire aristocracy" of your faction. Everything stays the same, including your concept - but adds that flavor of vampirism everyone has seemingly been craving for. Give those dark nobles "drain" and subtract some HP or Damage potential, and BOOM you've a vampire faction.


The following are just Ideas and in no way meant to be "certain" - just a thought:

Code: Select all

                     -->  Vampire Knight --> Vampire Dreadnaught
Vampire(Dark Noble) --> Vampire Lord --> Vampire Patriarch(Matriarch)               
                    --> Vampire Slayer --> Daywalker --> Damphir
(Vampire), LVL1, 34HP, (5)MP, chaotic, armoredfoot, recruit : (20)g (XP: 50)
Undead, Vampirism*
Slam (impact) : 6-3
Bite (pierce) : 4-2 (drains)
Mesmerize (Cold): 1-2 (Slow)

(Vampire Knight), LVL2, 54HP, 8MP, chaotic, mounted
Undead, Vampirism*
Spear (pierce) : 10-2 charge fearsome
Flay (Blade) : 4-3 (Dread)

(Vampire Dreadnaught), LVL3, 72HP, 8MP, chaotic, mounted
Undead, Vamiprism*
Spear (pierce) : 12-2 charge fearsome
Flay (Blade) : 7-3 (Dread)

(Vampire Lord), LVL2, 50HP, (5)MP (flys), chaotic, armoredfoot (XP: 70)
Leadership, Undead, Vampirism
Slam (impact) : 7-3
Mesmerizing Bite (cold) : 4-2 slow (Drains)

(Vampire Patriarch/Matriarch), LVL3, 68HP, (5)MP (flys), chaotic, (XP: 100)armoredfoot
Leadership, Vampirism*, Undead
Slam (impact) : 7-4
Mezmorizing Bite (cold) : 4-3 slow (Drains)

(Vampire Slayer), LVL2, 44HP, 5MP, chaotic, armoredfoot (XP: 70)
Vampirism*, Undead
Slam (impact) : 6-3
Silver Crossbow (Arcane) : 10-2(ranged)

*Daywalker*, Lvl3, 55HP, 5MP, chaotic, armoredfoot (XP: 100)
(Loses vampirism/undead) Regenerates
Silver Sword (Arcane): 6-4 (Marksman)
Silver Crossbow(Arcane): 12-2(ranged)

*Damphir*, Lvl4, 66HP, 5MP, chaotic, armoredfoot (XP:100)
Regenerates
Quicksilver Daggers (Arcane): 6-6 (Magical)
Quicksilver Crossbow(Arcane): 12-3(ranged) (Marksman)

Also - all Vampires could/would be undead, and a new ability given to each: Vampirism

Vampirism - Unit takes 4 damage in daytime unless in village, hills, castle, or cave-type hexes. At night, unit gains 8 Hp.

All vampires would have Slam and Blade resistances and piercing vulnerabilities, as well as cold resistance and fire/arcane vulnerabilities.


These are merely thoughts your faction inspired - since so many others want vampiers, and try to create units that dont seem to fit with the theme - your dark lords theme fits best. You could even make some of your "slave" or "henchmen" units into other varieties, like Werewolves, or Familiars.

Keep it up,
-Qes

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Post by playtom » August 21st, 2007, 12:55 am

you got a point there Qes, i only have one more suggestion to make: 3 out of 6 unit lines can only advanced to lvl 2, you maybe want to make that only 1 or 2 unit lines.
evolved around the confined environment, emotions, knowledge and events mixed into my life, mere mortal am i, trying to climb higher up the ladder, time passes, just then i realized, death will part me eventually. - playtom's philosophy

Qes
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Post by Qes » August 21st, 2007, 1:31 am

playtom wrote:you got a point there Qes, i only have one more suggestion to make: 3 out of 6 unit lines can only advanced to lvl 2, you maybe want to make that only 1 or 2 unit lines.
Not sure what you mean - The level 1 noble turns into 3 options which each have a line up to 3.

What i did was rename the noble (as a suggesiton) to Vampire, and then raised one line to level 4

Vampire is level 1

Vampire Knight, Vampire Lord, Vampire Slayer are level 2

Vampire Dreadnaught, Vampire Patriarch, and Daywalker are level 3

Damphir is lvl 4.

This was primarily just an idea for the creator to play with. And would finally suppliment that vampiristic craving we all seem to have as of late.


Another suggestion would be to add Werewolves and Familiars.

A Familiar could be a human without vampirism , perhaps a level 0 recruitable, that could turn into a vampire. (In this the vampire line would have two recruitables, one cheaper than the other)

Werewolves perhaps could have "lycanthropy" a condition like vampirism that could alter the unit during day and night cycles. The prefered method would be something that actually altered the unit graphically and totally as opposed to some mere stat adjustments. However i've no clue how this could be done.

The alternative method would be to have a double-unit line.

Code: Select all

Wereman (1)--> Werewolf (1)--> Alpha Wolf (1)
                           --> Wereman (1)

Alpha wolf (1)  -->  Direwolf (2)-->  Alpha Direwolf (2)
                                  --> Direman (2)

Alpha Direwolf(2) -->  Demonwolf (3) --> Lycan King (3) --> Demonwolf (3).
The idea here, is that the experience for leveling would be VERY low between "alterations" but higher between the alpha transformations. It looks complicated but is actually quite simple.

You purchase a Wereman. After say - 3 experience, he can level. He levels into a werewolf. As a werewolf, he gains 3 experience and can level again, now he has a choice.

He can either level into an "alpha" wolf, or back into a wereman.

The "alpha" version is no different than the regular version of the werewolf of the same level - except that it needs a significant amount of experience to level, and actually becomes the next teir of wolf. If he chooses the wereman, then he's transformed back into the man form.

So, if a person wanted to level a wolf to the highest levels. He'd level to werewolf, then to alpha wolf, then direwolf, then alpha direwolf, then Demonwolf.

In this there'd be a "man" and "wolf" form/unit at each level, and one "transitional" unit - which is identical to the regular wolf form, except it cannot turn into the man form.

Wolf forms would be chaotic, Man forms would be lawful or neutral. The wolves' would be more powerful - but perhaps they'd have berserk, or some dangerous aspect to them to make man forms preferrred in some situations.

In all cases the were-creature would use a low amount of xp to transform, except when in a transformnitive stage - then a higher amount would be needed, and an "actual" level would be gained after leveling.


Again - it sounds more complicated than it is. Simply put, transoforming would be done via leveling - which would occur often at low amounts of experience. Advancement would be done during transofrmnitive forms.

Just a thought if some simpler ability can't be achieved.

-Qes

waw
Posts: 162
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Post by waw » August 21st, 2007, 2:39 am

I think this faction has a wonderful potential and I fully support the idea of a lord like class with vampire (drain) ability.

I do think Poison should be thrown in there.

I have some basic knowledge in coding and if you would like, gladly give you a hand.
What would you give for your freedom?

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Casual User
Posts: 475
Joined: March 11th, 2005, 5:05 pm

Post by Casual User » August 22nd, 2007, 1:27 am

TL wrote:Again it's not that there's anything wrong with the individual units of the faction, it's just that as far as the faction as a whole there is no solid melee grunt. Skeletons, spearmen, orc grunts, elvish/dwarvish/drake fighters...
I think we're agreeing without coming to the same conclusion. I think it's possible to forego the heavy melee grunt as long as there are ways to circumvent its usage.

And I think there is.

The riders give you the occasional concentrated punch you occasionally need, but there are ways to reduce the need.

The varied movetypes mean you can go around and encircle a dug-in ennemy without having to break through his defensive barricade.

The cost-effective archers can swarm. Numbers can take down an embattled ennemy.

The giant has a good shot at breaking through any weaker link in the chain. Not to forget the henchmen who can use anygap in the defensive line to get in, at a low enough cost for you not to mind losing him that much.

In the end, all the discussion is shaky until we can try them for real, but I definitely look forward to your comments after the first release.
Qes wrote:I know vampirism gets tossed around as an idea for a faction quite a bit - but honestly your ideas look more like a vampire faction (sans name) than the others ive seen (or merely cared to puruse)

Consider renaming your Dark Noble Line - and making them the "vampire aristocracy" of your faction.
In a word, NO.

A few reasons:

1. There already is a very nice vampire faction in the Era of Myths, on the server. Check it out.

2. My stated goal was to make a faction based around the character of brutal and ruthless warlords that weren't evil for the sake of it.

In other words, the nobles use dark magic because, when and in the measure that it suits their needs, but they do not define themselves as dark mages.

Vampires, however, are defined by their connection to dark magic.

3. Another stated goal was to reduce the appearence of the supernatural. When you think about it, the recruits of this faction are less "magical" that those of the loyalists. It's done on purpose.

4. Vampires are an old, treaded and heavily re-used idea, even if not always decisively. The dark lord, however, is one that hasn't been explored yet. Originality = good.

5. Drain, like most attributes one would give a vampire lord seem primarily defensive ones (i.e. which decrease taken damage), which the faction already has plenty of. It is offensive abilities the faction lacks most.

6. I personally dislike the modern vampire mythos.

I could write some more, but the fact remains that I think a line of vampires would go against the feel, flavor and ideas I have for the faction.

A vampire unit, most possibly an alternative upgrade of the dark lord, is a feasible and possible idea, though. Purely for flavor. Not sure I like it, but worth considering...
waw wrote:I do think Poison should be thrown in there.

I have some basic knowledge in coding and if you would like, gladly give you a hand.
I'm not sure about poison. If I need offensive power, I'd be thinking more along the lines of leadership, but I'm again not sure...

Since you've mentionned coding, I have hit a snag from that front. Check out this thread for details...

Qes
Posts: 357
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Location: Minnesota

Post by Qes » August 22nd, 2007, 5:44 am

Casual User wrote: In a word, NO.

A few reasons:

1. There already is a very nice vampire faction in the Era of Myths, on the server. Check it out.

2. My stated goal was to make a faction based around the character of brutal and ruthless warlords that weren't evil for the sake of it.

In other words, the nobles use dark magic because, when and in the measure that it suits their needs, but they do not define themselves as dark mages.

Vampires, however, are defined by their connection to dark magic.

3. Another stated goal was to reduce the appearence of the supernatural. When you think about it, the recruits of this faction are less "magical" that those of the loyalists. It's done on purpose.

4. Vampires are an old, treaded and heavily re-used idea, even if not always decisively. The dark lord, however, is one that hasn't been explored yet. Originality = good.

5. Drain, like most attributes one would give a vampire lord seem primarily defensive ones (i.e. which decrease taken damage), which the faction already has plenty of. It is offensive abilities the faction lacks most.

6. I personally dislike the modern vampire mythos.

I could write some more, but the fact remains that I think a line of vampires would go against the feel, flavor and ideas I have for the faction.

A vampire unit, most possibly an alternative upgrade of the dark lord, is a feasible and possible idea, though. Purely for flavor. Not sure I like it, but worth considering...
waw wrote:I do think Poison should be thrown in there.

I have some basic knowledge in coding and if you would like, gladly give you a hand.
I'm not sure about poison. If I need offensive power, I'd be thinking more along the lines of leadership, but I'm again not sure...

Since you've mentionned coding, I have hit a snag from that front. Check out this thread for details...

I honestly didnt mean to ruffle any feathers. I simply looked at your dark lord line and despite what you say - it looks more like a vampire aristocracy than any other vampire faction I've seen on Wesnoth (especially the Myth era).

I was recommending a unit - which, naturally, has a line. A vampire line, not reworking everything else you've done.

I read your stated goals and admired them, truly I did. But it is this "over-used concept" that wet's the appetite of many who might want to play this faction. People like vampires.

I am in no way or by any means telling you what to do - I only had a mere idea so fragile that it could only waft across this forum on a carpet of hot air, lest it be trampled underfoot.

You can steal from whatever mythos you like, the pragmatic dark lords do not sound different in my mind to what a vampire would be save the name and "drain" abilities alone.

But, ce la vie.

I wish you luck and good testing with your Dark Lords, they would be fun to see on the battlefields of wesnoth (hopefully) in the extended era.

Just make sure they dont look like some strange horrible combination of the chaos, outlaws, and Northeners in feel and style. That's all I ask, that if they're going to be unique - that they feel unique.

Be well, and much luck and good well wishing to you,
-Qes

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TL
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Post by TL » August 23rd, 2007, 1:40 am

Well, I suppose the final verdict will indeed have to wait for actual playtesting. What leaves me skeptical, however, is the fact that loyalists already have units that can operate in similar capacities: horsemen and fencers are mostly equivalent to riders and henchmen scaled up in cost and attack power, bowmen are similar to archers but for a slightly weaker melee and lack of fire attack (which much of the time won't really come into play), heavy infantrymen can fill the bulk of the dark noble's direct offense role (better than the nobles can, even)...

...but in spite of all that the spearmen are still typically the ones doing most of the work. Except perhaps against undead, although even there spearmen are much more important than a lot of players give them credit.

It will be an interesting experiment to see, to be sure. Although I believe that, again, the variety in movetypes will be rather more useful from a defensive perspective than an offensive one.

And on another note...
Qes wrote:People like vampires.
People like NASCAR too but that doesn't mean this should be turned into a racecar faction.

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