Oh no, another vampire(?) faction idea!
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Oh no, another vampire(?) faction idea!
I'm going to work through this idea to see if it interests anybody, fully aware that there's already a vampire faction thread going in the forum right now. I hope my concept is sufficiently different to be merit some consideration.
*BACKGROUND CONCEPT*
The general inspiration for these factions come from Bram Stoker's Dracula and old vampire stories - essentially monsters within Eastern European aristocracy. As such, I tend to cut down on the actual number of undead or exotic elements to instead cultivate an atmosphere of mad, inhuman feudal lords half-worshipped by and half-terrifying their starving and downtrodden peasants as seemingly untouchable and awe-inspiring gods.
In such, I also worked with the actual history of Vladimir Tepes. Here was a man who was known to be casual killer, who found it hilarious to burn his own vassals to death, loved gruesome torture, prided himself on using terror as a weapon and yet who was deeply admired by his contemporaries as a ferocious fighter and as a savior to his vassals against the Turks. One could hardly find a better contrast, or a better concept for a dark prince.
Within Wesnoth, I imagine them to be an incredibly secluded and isolated enclave of immortals and their vassals holding sway in some corner of the world.
Furthermore, I decided that as a rule, they wouldn't be as advanced technologically or even militaristically as their Loyalist counterparts. After all, they've spent the vast majority of their time either in decadence, petty squabbles, or relying on their own massive supernatural powers. This does not bode well for the development of their armies.
*STRATEGIC CONCEPT*
So how would I try to adapt this into Wesnoth as an unique strategic concept? I decided to deeply consider the raminifications of psychology in the game.
We all engage in an educated guessing game against our opponents, especially when fog of war is on. We try to guess our opponent's actual plan or strategy(so we can disrupt it), we try to guess how our opponent will try to disrupt us(so we can counter), and even what units our opponents will use.
And when we can't figure out what our opponent does, that's when it begins to worry us.
So that's how I came up with the idea that this Darkland army's theme would primarily be in ambush and hide. The fact that their units were overall, more primitive, less well-trained, and generally weaker doesn't matter as much when their opponents can never accurately judge where they are. You might move part of your forces into a location, then be swarmed and destroyed by an entire hidden army. Or you might generally advance your forces, only to find your villages being stolen from behind you from numerous skirmishers before losing to pure, sheer numbers of rabble.
Moving forward at all against Darkland, then, should be a nerve-racking experience. Essentially, I imagined them quite defensive, but in an offensive way. They didn't prevent you from moving forward by being unearthable, or by doing a lot of damage to you. They just threatened complete annihilation of your entire forward detachment if you misjudged them for even a turn.
It also helps with the background, too, as many Eastern European armies were known for their capabilities at harassment, from the tribes of steppe horse archers to even the Cossacks as they hassled Napoleonic soldiers were known for attacking swiftly, then retreating and disappearing.
Of course, then there are the vampires. Inhuman creatures of massive strength and power. That ought to toss a wrench into any expectations that the Transylvians won't attack themselves, or even display surprising ferocity. This ought to be fun.
So let's get into the units now on the next post for organization's sake...
*BACKGROUND CONCEPT*
The general inspiration for these factions come from Bram Stoker's Dracula and old vampire stories - essentially monsters within Eastern European aristocracy. As such, I tend to cut down on the actual number of undead or exotic elements to instead cultivate an atmosphere of mad, inhuman feudal lords half-worshipped by and half-terrifying their starving and downtrodden peasants as seemingly untouchable and awe-inspiring gods.
In such, I also worked with the actual history of Vladimir Tepes. Here was a man who was known to be casual killer, who found it hilarious to burn his own vassals to death, loved gruesome torture, prided himself on using terror as a weapon and yet who was deeply admired by his contemporaries as a ferocious fighter and as a savior to his vassals against the Turks. One could hardly find a better contrast, or a better concept for a dark prince.
Within Wesnoth, I imagine them to be an incredibly secluded and isolated enclave of immortals and their vassals holding sway in some corner of the world.
Furthermore, I decided that as a rule, they wouldn't be as advanced technologically or even militaristically as their Loyalist counterparts. After all, they've spent the vast majority of their time either in decadence, petty squabbles, or relying on their own massive supernatural powers. This does not bode well for the development of their armies.
*STRATEGIC CONCEPT*
So how would I try to adapt this into Wesnoth as an unique strategic concept? I decided to deeply consider the raminifications of psychology in the game.
We all engage in an educated guessing game against our opponents, especially when fog of war is on. We try to guess our opponent's actual plan or strategy(so we can disrupt it), we try to guess how our opponent will try to disrupt us(so we can counter), and even what units our opponents will use.
And when we can't figure out what our opponent does, that's when it begins to worry us.
So that's how I came up with the idea that this Darkland army's theme would primarily be in ambush and hide. The fact that their units were overall, more primitive, less well-trained, and generally weaker doesn't matter as much when their opponents can never accurately judge where they are. You might move part of your forces into a location, then be swarmed and destroyed by an entire hidden army. Or you might generally advance your forces, only to find your villages being stolen from behind you from numerous skirmishers before losing to pure, sheer numbers of rabble.
Moving forward at all against Darkland, then, should be a nerve-racking experience. Essentially, I imagined them quite defensive, but in an offensive way. They didn't prevent you from moving forward by being unearthable, or by doing a lot of damage to you. They just threatened complete annihilation of your entire forward detachment if you misjudged them for even a turn.
It also helps with the background, too, as many Eastern European armies were known for their capabilities at harassment, from the tribes of steppe horse archers to even the Cossacks as they hassled Napoleonic soldiers were known for attacking swiftly, then retreating and disappearing.
Of course, then there are the vampires. Inhuman creatures of massive strength and power. That ought to toss a wrench into any expectations that the Transylvians won't attack themselves, or even display surprising ferocity. This ought to be fun.
So let's get into the units now on the next post for organization's sake...
Name: Henchmen
Level: ZERO
Description: The vast majority of the armed retainers to the Darkland vampires are mere Henchmen. Poorly trained, they are nonetheless experts at hiding to conduct effective ambushes in concert with their dark overlords.
Special Abilities: Ambush
Moves: 5
Attacks: Spear 5-2 pierce melee
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Stalker, Nightguard
Cost: 10
HP: 14
Comments: Essentially the same statline as peasants, I think it should be very revealing that these guys these appear to be the general men-at-arms in service to the Vampire Counts. It tells a lot about the general lack of discipline(they can't even project ZoC), but it also shows their emphasis on stealth.
Strategically, these guys ought to be annoying. They're cheap enough to hide in the forests and occupy enough squares to give Rebels nowhere to move into. They make every single forest square a potential threat. And their Pierce attack allows them to potentially slaughter cavalry.
Of course, they don't project ZoC and when all is said and done, they're just expensive peasants which aren't afraid of the night.
===
Name: Nightguard
Level: ONE
Description: The elite guard of the Vampire counts, these fearless spearmen serve as the black hand of their master's will.
Special Abilities: None.
Moves: 5
Attacks: Spear 7-3 pierce melee Firststrike, Sword 4-4 blade melee
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Dark Champion
HP: 36
Cost: 15
Comments: So we have the "elite" of the vampire counts, and they're the same statline as your average Wesnoth spearmen sans a ranged attack. And they cost more.
Again, it shows how the armies of the Vampire counts is generally inferior, but it also revealing something else by giving them a mostly nominal sword attack.
While very few units in this game that resist pierce don't resist blade, there is one that I can think of - Skeletons. The Vampire Counts clearly have to deal with unruly undead fairly often, and the fact that their elite is trained against them definitely helps.
Something else - by giving them 4 attack with the sword, this also gives the Darklands a method(although poor) of dealing with elusivefoots in cover.
===
Name: Stalker
Level: ONE
Description: Some henchmen become skilled hunters in the dark woods of the vampire counts, preferring their prey not to be beasts of the wood, but those who have suffered the displeasure of their masters. Often the only sign of their presence is an arrow in the back.
Special Abilities: Ambush. And it can't be hired, only promoted from Henchmen.
Moves: 5
Attacks: Spear 5-2 pierce melee, Bow 4-3 pierce ranged.
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Silencer
HP: 27
Cost: 17
Comments: I generally wanted to avoid giving the Darklands much in the way of ranged firepower.
However, I still felt that the Stalker was appropriate because in spite of being much harder to get compared to a Poacher, they were weaker but did have ambush. Its another reason to be afraid of the woods - and it does give them more flexibility as the game allows the player to level units into them.
===
Vampire
Level: ONE
Description: A bloodthirsty aristocratic spirit, one of the masters of the forces of the Darklands.
Special Abilities: Flying, Lifesuck
Moves: 6
Attacks: Sword 6-4 melee, Fangs 4-3 blade lifesuck
Defences: 30% blade, 30% impact
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Vampire Lord
HP: 33
Cost: 30
Comments: Yes, this is a monster of an unit. However, given that the Darklands faction is supposed to lack amphibious units, most tanks, or even a reliable ranged unit, the vampire is supposed to somehow fill in /all/ roles while being incredibly expensive - which means that you'll only be able to field one or two, at most.
I see them as a bit like queens in chess. While incredibly powerful, because they need to fill in multiple roles, they're liable to be incredibly unavailable for any particular role.
If your entire strategy hinges on them killing everything for you, sooner or later they will be trapped between two enemies with pierce weapons. And you'll be down 1/3 of your starting gold.
Lifesuck itself is an interesting ability. Essentially, I see it as a Drain with a bonus - it also potentially creates Thralls or more powerful vampires if he kills anyone with an appropriate level. Essentially, if the vampire is of the same or greater level as his victim, it creates a vampire one level below the converting vampire's power of the appropriate gender, if the created vampire does not exceed the level of the original victim's level.
Here's an example how I see it as working.
If a Vampire kills a level 0 unit with lifesuck, he gets nothing. If a Vampire kills a level 1 unit with lifesuck, he gets a Thrall(lvl 0 vampire). If a Vampire Lord(lvl 2 vampire) kills a Pikeman(lvl 2 unit) with lifesuck, he gets another Vampire. However, if a Vampire Lord kills an Elven Sylph(lvl 4 unit) with lifesuck, he only gets a Bride(lvl 2 vampire).
And if a Thrall(lvl 1) kills /anyone/, he gets nothing.
===
Thrall
Level: ZERO
Description: A blood-bond undead servant of a vampire.
Special Abilities: Lifesuck. And it can't be hired, only created from fallen enemies.
Moves: 4
Attacks: Fangs 4-2 blade melee lifesuck
Defences: 30% blade, 30% impact
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Vampire, Bride
HP: 14
Cost: --
Comments: This is an incredibly nasty Walking Corpse, which adds to the overall threat of a vampire. Of course, pierce does downs them pretty quick.
===
Bride
Level: ONE
Description: One of the undead consorts of the aristocracy of the Darklands.
Special Abilities: Flying, Skirmish, Lifesuck. And it can't be hired, only created from fallen enemies or promoted from female Thralls.
Moves: 6
Attacks: Fangs 5-3 blade lifesuck
Defences: 30% blade, 30% impact
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Nothing.
HP: 30
Cost: --
Comments: I made it unadvanceable for two reasons. First, while classic literature does include female vampires(Carmilla, for one), they generally were seen as being pretty much lost to their lusts, as were the Brides of Dracula. The other, more major reason is that I don't really want to imagine the advancement of a skirmishing flier that can create more minions.
===
Vampire Lord
Level: TWO
Description: A bloodthirsty aristocratic spirit, one of the masters of the forces of the Darklands.
Special Abilities: Flying, Lifesuck
Moves: 6
Attacks: Sword 7-4 blade melee, Fangs 5-4 blade lifesuck, 7-2 ranged fire.
Defences: 30% blade, 30% impact
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Blood Baron
HP: 40
Cost: 30
Comments: I gave the Vampire Lord a ranged attack mostly out of self-indulgence. However, it makes thematic sense to me that having had to deal with other vampires for most of their lives, what better way to capture their loyalties than to focus on their weaknesses?
===
Heavy Cavalry
Level: ONE
Description: Heavily armored and armed, the mounted servants of the vampire counts are often the last sight an infantryman sees.
Special Abilities: Entangle
Moves: 5
Attacks: Warhammer 10-2 impact melee Entangle
Defences: 40% blade, 40% impact, 0% pierce
30% evade in all terrain, 20% in water
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Black Knight
HP: 38
Cost: 24
Comments: Yet another linebreaker unit like the vampire, I envisioned this as similar to the Wesnoth horseman for some purposes, but with a completely different mechanic to it.
While the Wesnothian horseman is fast to run down enemies and survives by evading units with pierce, this is primarily focused on surviving by being tough and slows down enemies for the smashing. Furthermore, it is designed with the thought of synergy with other ambushing forces in mind. Once it has managed to engage an enemy, if it engages, a fleeing foe can't run very far. Even if the Heavy Cavalry can't follow up the kill, someone else can.
This is also a potential siege unit. It has enough HP, and does enough damage that it can potentially just outlive a unit trying to hide in a town.
===
Black Knight
Level: TWO
Description: Like heavy cavalry, but more powerful. I do plan on elaborating on the descriptions someday, really!
Special Abilities: Entangle, Marksman
Moves: 5
Attacks: Warhammer 12-2 impact melee entangle
Frostblade 7-3 cold melee marksman
Defences: 40% blade, 40% impact, 0% pierce
30% evade in all terrain, 20% in water
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Nothing.
HP: 52
Cost: --
Comments: Probably much too powerful, I see him as a kind of a siege unit to help turn the tide of the game if lvl 2 units have entered the fray. The Darklands doesn't get much in the way of siege or a way of hitting elusivefoots, so I imagine that by the time they get to lvl 2, it gives them at least one unit that can deal with enemies hiding in cover.
==
Night Wolves
Level: ONE
Description: Wolves in the darkness.
Special Abilities: Nightstalk
Moves: 5
Attacks: Bite 8-2 blade melee
Defences: Elusivefoot in cover
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Fell Wolves
HP: 24
Cost: 17
Comments: Another harrassment unit. This one is primarily designed to advance under the cover of night, where it can capture enemy towns behind enemy lines and serve as a kind of a fighting scout.
It can also snap off enemy stragglers, being a nightstalker, but its primary value probably lies in harrassment.
==
Fell Wolves
Level: TWO
Description: Wolves in the darkness.
Special Abilities: Nightstalk, regenerate
Moves: 5
Attacks: Bite 8-3 blade melee
Defences: Elusivefoot in cover
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: --
HP: 33
Cost: ?
Comments: Harrassment with regeneration. I imagine this as being one of the most annoying units in the game.
Level: ZERO
Description: The vast majority of the armed retainers to the Darkland vampires are mere Henchmen. Poorly trained, they are nonetheless experts at hiding to conduct effective ambushes in concert with their dark overlords.
Special Abilities: Ambush
Moves: 5
Attacks: Spear 5-2 pierce melee
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Stalker, Nightguard
Cost: 10
HP: 14
Comments: Essentially the same statline as peasants, I think it should be very revealing that these guys these appear to be the general men-at-arms in service to the Vampire Counts. It tells a lot about the general lack of discipline(they can't even project ZoC), but it also shows their emphasis on stealth.
Strategically, these guys ought to be annoying. They're cheap enough to hide in the forests and occupy enough squares to give Rebels nowhere to move into. They make every single forest square a potential threat. And their Pierce attack allows them to potentially slaughter cavalry.
Of course, they don't project ZoC and when all is said and done, they're just expensive peasants which aren't afraid of the night.
===
Name: Nightguard
Level: ONE
Description: The elite guard of the Vampire counts, these fearless spearmen serve as the black hand of their master's will.
Special Abilities: None.
Moves: 5
Attacks: Spear 7-3 pierce melee Firststrike, Sword 4-4 blade melee
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Dark Champion
HP: 36
Cost: 15
Comments: So we have the "elite" of the vampire counts, and they're the same statline as your average Wesnoth spearmen sans a ranged attack. And they cost more.
Again, it shows how the armies of the Vampire counts is generally inferior, but it also revealing something else by giving them a mostly nominal sword attack.
While very few units in this game that resist pierce don't resist blade, there is one that I can think of - Skeletons. The Vampire Counts clearly have to deal with unruly undead fairly often, and the fact that their elite is trained against them definitely helps.
Something else - by giving them 4 attack with the sword, this also gives the Darklands a method(although poor) of dealing with elusivefoots in cover.
===
Name: Stalker
Level: ONE
Description: Some henchmen become skilled hunters in the dark woods of the vampire counts, preferring their prey not to be beasts of the wood, but those who have suffered the displeasure of their masters. Often the only sign of their presence is an arrow in the back.
Special Abilities: Ambush. And it can't be hired, only promoted from Henchmen.
Moves: 5
Attacks: Spear 5-2 pierce melee, Bow 4-3 pierce ranged.
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Silencer
HP: 27
Cost: 17
Comments: I generally wanted to avoid giving the Darklands much in the way of ranged firepower.
However, I still felt that the Stalker was appropriate because in spite of being much harder to get compared to a Poacher, they were weaker but did have ambush. Its another reason to be afraid of the woods - and it does give them more flexibility as the game allows the player to level units into them.
===
Vampire
Level: ONE
Description: A bloodthirsty aristocratic spirit, one of the masters of the forces of the Darklands.
Special Abilities: Flying, Lifesuck
Moves: 6
Attacks: Sword 6-4 melee, Fangs 4-3 blade lifesuck
Defences: 30% blade, 30% impact
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Vampire Lord
HP: 33
Cost: 30
Comments: Yes, this is a monster of an unit. However, given that the Darklands faction is supposed to lack amphibious units, most tanks, or even a reliable ranged unit, the vampire is supposed to somehow fill in /all/ roles while being incredibly expensive - which means that you'll only be able to field one or two, at most.
I see them as a bit like queens in chess. While incredibly powerful, because they need to fill in multiple roles, they're liable to be incredibly unavailable for any particular role.
If your entire strategy hinges on them killing everything for you, sooner or later they will be trapped between two enemies with pierce weapons. And you'll be down 1/3 of your starting gold.
Lifesuck itself is an interesting ability. Essentially, I see it as a Drain with a bonus - it also potentially creates Thralls or more powerful vampires if he kills anyone with an appropriate level. Essentially, if the vampire is of the same or greater level as his victim, it creates a vampire one level below the converting vampire's power of the appropriate gender, if the created vampire does not exceed the level of the original victim's level.
Here's an example how I see it as working.
If a Vampire kills a level 0 unit with lifesuck, he gets nothing. If a Vampire kills a level 1 unit with lifesuck, he gets a Thrall(lvl 0 vampire). If a Vampire Lord(lvl 2 vampire) kills a Pikeman(lvl 2 unit) with lifesuck, he gets another Vampire. However, if a Vampire Lord kills an Elven Sylph(lvl 4 unit) with lifesuck, he only gets a Bride(lvl 2 vampire).
And if a Thrall(lvl 1) kills /anyone/, he gets nothing.
===
Thrall
Level: ZERO
Description: A blood-bond undead servant of a vampire.
Special Abilities: Lifesuck. And it can't be hired, only created from fallen enemies.
Moves: 4
Attacks: Fangs 4-2 blade melee lifesuck
Defences: 30% blade, 30% impact
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Vampire, Bride
HP: 14
Cost: --
Comments: This is an incredibly nasty Walking Corpse, which adds to the overall threat of a vampire. Of course, pierce does downs them pretty quick.
===
Bride
Level: ONE
Description: One of the undead consorts of the aristocracy of the Darklands.
Special Abilities: Flying, Skirmish, Lifesuck. And it can't be hired, only created from fallen enemies or promoted from female Thralls.
Moves: 6
Attacks: Fangs 5-3 blade lifesuck
Defences: 30% blade, 30% impact
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Nothing.
HP: 30
Cost: --
Comments: I made it unadvanceable for two reasons. First, while classic literature does include female vampires(Carmilla, for one), they generally were seen as being pretty much lost to their lusts, as were the Brides of Dracula. The other, more major reason is that I don't really want to imagine the advancement of a skirmishing flier that can create more minions.
===
Vampire Lord
Level: TWO
Description: A bloodthirsty aristocratic spirit, one of the masters of the forces of the Darklands.
Special Abilities: Flying, Lifesuck
Moves: 6
Attacks: Sword 7-4 blade melee, Fangs 5-4 blade lifesuck, 7-2 ranged fire.
Defences: 30% blade, 30% impact
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Blood Baron
HP: 40
Cost: 30
Comments: I gave the Vampire Lord a ranged attack mostly out of self-indulgence. However, it makes thematic sense to me that having had to deal with other vampires for most of their lives, what better way to capture their loyalties than to focus on their weaknesses?
===
Heavy Cavalry
Level: ONE
Description: Heavily armored and armed, the mounted servants of the vampire counts are often the last sight an infantryman sees.
Special Abilities: Entangle
Moves: 5
Attacks: Warhammer 10-2 impact melee Entangle
Defences: 40% blade, 40% impact, 0% pierce
30% evade in all terrain, 20% in water
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Black Knight
HP: 38
Cost: 24
Comments: Yet another linebreaker unit like the vampire, I envisioned this as similar to the Wesnoth horseman for some purposes, but with a completely different mechanic to it.
While the Wesnothian horseman is fast to run down enemies and survives by evading units with pierce, this is primarily focused on surviving by being tough and slows down enemies for the smashing. Furthermore, it is designed with the thought of synergy with other ambushing forces in mind. Once it has managed to engage an enemy, if it engages, a fleeing foe can't run very far. Even if the Heavy Cavalry can't follow up the kill, someone else can.
This is also a potential siege unit. It has enough HP, and does enough damage that it can potentially just outlive a unit trying to hide in a town.
===
Black Knight
Level: TWO
Description: Like heavy cavalry, but more powerful. I do plan on elaborating on the descriptions someday, really!
Special Abilities: Entangle, Marksman
Moves: 5
Attacks: Warhammer 12-2 impact melee entangle
Frostblade 7-3 cold melee marksman
Defences: 40% blade, 40% impact, 0% pierce
30% evade in all terrain, 20% in water
Alignment: Neutral
Advances to: Nothing.
HP: 52
Cost: --
Comments: Probably much too powerful, I see him as a kind of a siege unit to help turn the tide of the game if lvl 2 units have entered the fray. The Darklands doesn't get much in the way of siege or a way of hitting elusivefoots, so I imagine that by the time they get to lvl 2, it gives them at least one unit that can deal with enemies hiding in cover.
==
Night Wolves
Level: ONE
Description: Wolves in the darkness.
Special Abilities: Nightstalk
Moves: 5
Attacks: Bite 8-2 blade melee
Defences: Elusivefoot in cover
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: Fell Wolves
HP: 24
Cost: 17
Comments: Another harrassment unit. This one is primarily designed to advance under the cover of night, where it can capture enemy towns behind enemy lines and serve as a kind of a fighting scout.
It can also snap off enemy stragglers, being a nightstalker, but its primary value probably lies in harrassment.
==
Fell Wolves
Level: TWO
Description: Wolves in the darkness.
Special Abilities: Nightstalk, regenerate
Moves: 5
Attacks: Bite 8-3 blade melee
Defences: Elusivefoot in cover
Alignment: Chaotic
Advances to: --
HP: 33
Cost: ?
Comments: Harrassment with regeneration. I imagine this as being one of the most annoying units in the game.
Last edited by Sean on May 15th, 2007, 4:19 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Maeglin Dubh
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Threre's Already a Vampire faction in the Era of Myths, and the Extended Era Dark Elves have some similarities to what you've posted... I would look at both them and see what you think... you can find their images and base stats at units.wesnoth.org
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
*comes out of lurking*
I really like the concept of this faction. Though it has some similairities with the Vampire Faction that I originaly started, it is different enough...
I'm looking forward to you finishing this ^^
*back into lurking*
I really like the concept of this faction. Though it has some similairities with the Vampire Faction that I originaly started, it is different enough...
I'm looking forward to you finishing this ^^
*back into lurking*
I heard they were stoned out of their minds, trying to convince the Statue of Liberty to get naked...
CCBS - Compulsive Cat Biting Syndrome, when you know that kittens shouldn't have heads attached to their bodies.
CCBS - Compulsive Cat Biting Syndrome, when you know that kittens shouldn't have heads attached to their bodies.
I put some initial stabs at artwork for the faction in this thread in the Art Workshop forum.
Last edited by Sean on May 24th, 2007, 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Casual User
- Posts: 475
- Joined: March 11th, 2005, 5:05 pm
First off, a little rant.
Second of all, most of those charges were actually trumped up by Matias Corvin to justify his decision of attacking and imprisoning Vlad Tepes. Matias Corvin (king of Hungaria) decided to attack Tepes because he had set off a premature conflict with the Ottoman Empire, and Corvin was afraid it would either result in a full-scale war with the Turks, or with Tepes claiming full sovereignity for his kingdom (he was at the time a de facto vassal of Hungaria).
To avoid looking like a Christian king backstabbing another Christian king (theoretically his ally) during a conflict with the Ottoman Empire, Corvin had to make it look like he had higher motives for imprisoning Tepes, so he grossly exaggerated Tepes's ruthlessness to justify his later actions.
While Tepes was definitely no choir boy, and did indeed use mass executions and torture of captives against the Turks (something which was in no way uncommon at the time), most of the atrocities attributed to him were, in fact, exaggerations or even outright inventions.
As for the vampire connection, suffice to say that vampires aren't actually an important part of Romanian folklore...
Pop Quiz :
According to you, which region of modern-day Romania did Vlad Tepes rule?
Enough ranting, some constructive comments
FWIW, I actually like the idea, with a few comments.
1. You need more unit lines.
You only have four at the time. I suggest you make two different infantry lines. I'd say one line of light infantry (the ambushing one) and one for heavier fighting.
Personally, I'd suggest making the ambushing line more footpad-like, a fast and elusive mixed fighter, and keeping the spearman for the heavier type of infantry, maybe like a weaker but chaotic (or neutral) version of the mainline spearman.
If you want to inspire yourself from the Romanian armies of the time, I'd say the light infantry should be a fast militia-like figher armed with a club or axe (could turn into a mace or sword on higher levels) while the heavier infantry would be a sword-and-bow mixed fighter with some mail.
2. I think wolves shouldn't be fighters but rather scouts.
Wolves are quite fast, but I don't think they's be able to do much damage against well-equipped soldiers. I think they'd be better suited for capturing villages and finishing off wounded ennemies than for front-line fighting. It goes better with their symbolism too.
3. Are you sure you want them to be vampires?
See, not only is the vampire theme done to death, but the concept is a little redundant here (IMO).
An idea that hasn't been exploited at all, though, is that of the Dark Lord, who would be a warlord in the full sense of the word but a ruthless and thuggish one, surrounded by ruffian armies of dark knights and cruel footmen, and somewhat steeped in the Black Arts...
The first thing I thought of was that the evil noblemen would not be vampires but rather strong battlefield fighters who would also have a weak 'curse' attack which would either turn slain ennemies into skeletons (raising the dead) or into ghosts (my personal favorite).
A (harder to code) alternative would be for the Dark Lord (only him, not his men) to be able, when he captures a village, to slaughter the villagers (destroying the village) in return for a free demon unit (you can find one quite easily). Moving him into a village he already owns wouldn't do that.
In fact, with the addition of skeletons, ghosts or demons, the faction would probably have enough units lines...
In any case, good luck with your project, and sorry for having been so verbose.
First of, it's Vlad Tepes. Vladimir is the slavic version of the name, and (what is now) Romania wasn't at the time under slavic influence.Sean wrote:In such, I also worked with the actual history of Vladimir Tepes. Here was a man who was known to be casual killer, who found it hilarious to burn his own vassals to death, loved gruesome torture, prided himself on using terror as a weapon and yet who was deeply admired by his contemporaries as a ferocious fighter and as a savior to his vassals against the Turks. One could hardly find a better contrast, or a better concept for a dark prince.
Second of all, most of those charges were actually trumped up by Matias Corvin to justify his decision of attacking and imprisoning Vlad Tepes. Matias Corvin (king of Hungaria) decided to attack Tepes because he had set off a premature conflict with the Ottoman Empire, and Corvin was afraid it would either result in a full-scale war with the Turks, or with Tepes claiming full sovereignity for his kingdom (he was at the time a de facto vassal of Hungaria).
To avoid looking like a Christian king backstabbing another Christian king (theoretically his ally) during a conflict with the Ottoman Empire, Corvin had to make it look like he had higher motives for imprisoning Tepes, so he grossly exaggerated Tepes's ruthlessness to justify his later actions.
While Tepes was definitely no choir boy, and did indeed use mass executions and torture of captives against the Turks (something which was in no way uncommon at the time), most of the atrocities attributed to him were, in fact, exaggerations or even outright inventions.
As for the vampire connection, suffice to say that vampires aren't actually an important part of Romanian folklore...
Pop Quiz :
According to you, which region of modern-day Romania did Vlad Tepes rule?
Enough ranting, some constructive comments
FWIW, I actually like the idea, with a few comments.
1. You need more unit lines.
You only have four at the time. I suggest you make two different infantry lines. I'd say one line of light infantry (the ambushing one) and one for heavier fighting.
Personally, I'd suggest making the ambushing line more footpad-like, a fast and elusive mixed fighter, and keeping the spearman for the heavier type of infantry, maybe like a weaker but chaotic (or neutral) version of the mainline spearman.
If you want to inspire yourself from the Romanian armies of the time, I'd say the light infantry should be a fast militia-like figher armed with a club or axe (could turn into a mace or sword on higher levels) while the heavier infantry would be a sword-and-bow mixed fighter with some mail.
2. I think wolves shouldn't be fighters but rather scouts.
Wolves are quite fast, but I don't think they's be able to do much damage against well-equipped soldiers. I think they'd be better suited for capturing villages and finishing off wounded ennemies than for front-line fighting. It goes better with their symbolism too.
3. Are you sure you want them to be vampires?
See, not only is the vampire theme done to death, but the concept is a little redundant here (IMO).
An idea that hasn't been exploited at all, though, is that of the Dark Lord, who would be a warlord in the full sense of the word but a ruthless and thuggish one, surrounded by ruffian armies of dark knights and cruel footmen, and somewhat steeped in the Black Arts...
The first thing I thought of was that the evil noblemen would not be vampires but rather strong battlefield fighters who would also have a weak 'curse' attack which would either turn slain ennemies into skeletons (raising the dead) or into ghosts (my personal favorite).
A (harder to code) alternative would be for the Dark Lord (only him, not his men) to be able, when he captures a village, to slaughter the villagers (destroying the village) in return for a free demon unit (you can find one quite easily). Moving him into a village he already owns wouldn't do that.
In fact, with the addition of skeletons, ghosts or demons, the faction would probably have enough units lines...
In any case, good luck with your project, and sorry for having been so verbose.
A rant to a rant!
Sean blathers responsively.
No problems - actually, I love reading long posts and I really appreciate the thought that you put behind yours. I'm not exactly brief and to the point mysef, so it'll be very hypocritical for me to criticize others.
Prince Vlad Tepes ruled Wallachia, which is now known as Muntenia due to the unification of Romania. Admittedly, though, the majority of my knowledge of Vlad isn't really from research as it was from an Eastern European friend who had a penchant for praising Dracula's strength as the same time as he gloried in stories of Dracula's supposed and real atrocities. Admittedly, Dracula was far from alone from his brutality and sadism; many of his victims were boyars who themselves were incredibly brutal and had a tendancy to expedite the death of the various princes and overlords.
And yeah, folklorish vampires tended to be pretty far from the vampires we know today.
That said, my other inspiration was from pulp English 19th century short stories and novels that seemed fond to portray aristocracy, especially Eastern European aristocrats as vampires. The reasoning behind is complex, somewhat enthnocentric and probably beyond the scope of the game's discussion, but at least part of it had to do with the fact that Eastern Europe was seen as essentially feudal even into the mid to late 18th century.
Vampires then had more dimensions beyond their psychosexual which we tended to focus on - there was also the perception of the vampire as a parasite that undeservedly fed on the labors of others. That metaphor was transferred to hereditary nobility exploiting the masses, and sometimes boomeranged in a looking mirror reflection to speculate on English classes.
Ultimately, I'm inspired as much historically as I am by various pulp fiction with the general ambience of Transylvania as "Don't go into the dark" and "The dead do not rest easy in the cursed soil." Arguably the latter was none too far from the belief of Romanian peasants, who had a penchant for unearthing corpses and had quite a few superstitions that as far as I could understand, revolved around spontaneously appearing undead(all essentially folkloreish vampires, but all pretty far from Bram Stoker'ish vampires).
1. More unit lines.
I like your ideas in general. I suppose I'll have to mock up the unit sprites, see what I came come out with, and eventually do balancing on the units.
The idea of a mainline sword-and-bow infantry line in particular interests me. Wesnoth has quite a few archers who happen to be able to fight melee, but not that many lvl 1 melee fighters that happen to be able to loose arrows back at their foes(with the obvious exception of the Rebel's Elvish Fighter).
The spearmen will be required for balancing as well as thematic reasons. AFAIK, The pointy stick and all its many variants was pretty much the single most common weapon for footmen from the medieval era even to the renaissance. Knights and heavy cavalry defined the battlefield, and with every knight valued strategically as the equal of 24 foot soldiers, it seems reasonable that the infantry support would primarily consist of anything that could potentially bring down a horseman.
And on a tangential, but related note, would you have any artistic depictions of these soldiers? It'll help with my spriting. I'm particularly curous about footmen with maces or clubs - both seem counterintuitive weapons to use when your primary fear is getting impaled by a long lance or being run over by hooves.
2. Wolves shouldn't be fighters.
Wolves occupy an uncomfortable position on my roster. Until you mentioned them, I was giving serious thought to dropping them all together from the list. Their primary raison d'être was to fit in with Dracula myth of wolves and other traditionally disliked animals being their allies.
I think it'll be interesting to give wolves a significant debuff but a 2-4(3-4 at night) attack. At 8-12 damage, its not likely to kill anyone, but it'll very reliably finish off the last few HP of a dying unit. Wolves preying on the weak sounds pretty accurate to their symbolism.
3. Are you sure you want them to be vampires?
First, before I get into the main discussion about the dark knights and the dark lord, there's a very interesting thread of thought I had about the presence of heavy cavalry into Darklands faction.
There's no particular historical reason why a Transylvanian army should have any heavier knights than their western counterparts. My main thread to authenticity were from the Byzantine kataphraktoi who were terrifying in their day. Of course, none of that really makes sense for the insanely expensive kataphraktoi to be in fantasy version of medieval Romania, which was far from a wealthy realm thanks to repeated dominations or attempts at domination from their neighbors.
This made me reidentify these horsemen as the wealthiest members of the Darklands that I could imagine: the boyars. There's no reason historically in my knowledge that they would be entirely different from Western European nobility - some of them must have been soldiers or commanders. And when they did so, I would assume they chose to fight on horseback like western knights.
In fact, for awhile I considered entirely renaming "heavy cavalry" to "boyar", but decided in the favor of clarity. Their boyar origins could be relegated to a description, and all is sane and consistent in my world again. Those fit the idea of a "dark nobleman" quite well for me, given the general unpopularity of the boyars with their peasants.
Onward to more salient discussion. The idea of a Dark Lord that masters demons and undead is interesting, but it seems to serially overlap with the baliff of the Chaos faction. Right now, the Darklands does overlap with the vampire faction, but with a significantly different spin. Dark raiders and marauders seems to be essentially the very same theme as the current Chaos faction.
Nonetheless, both you and I had a remarkably similar idea with village destruction. Originally, I thought about a level in the campaign for Dark Lands where you would be able to burn or destroy captured villages(or even your own villages) in a kind of desperate scorched earth policy which would be remarkably consistent with the symbolism of the faction.
It'll still be interesting if the Darklands had such an ability in multiplayer. Such an ability VERY powerful and unprecedented - potentially upsetting the entire map balance given time since they can eventually shatter the supply of income to their opponent. But it would very much make them an incredibly unique faction with very unique strengths and potentials to play.
Certainly it'll help compensate for the near absolute lack of any siege unit in their arsenal. With the inclusion of a "village destroy" ability, they can be a faction which will have a very difficult time taking enemy villages - but once they've slaughtered the defenders at great loss to themselves?
Cue fields of stakes and mass slaughter. The enemy never ever benefits from that village again.
At any rate, if you're still curious about the progress of this mod, I've started a blog wherein I can ramble at my leisure rather than spamming the forum here. Its in my signature.
PS: Coding really isn't a bother for me. I've worked in the gaming industry on the coding part before, especially with WML, so I feel generally confident especially with the excellent assistance we get from the Code development board.
No problems - actually, I love reading long posts and I really appreciate the thought that you put behind yours. I'm not exactly brief and to the point mysef, so it'll be very hypocritical for me to criticize others.
Prince Vlad Tepes ruled Wallachia, which is now known as Muntenia due to the unification of Romania. Admittedly, though, the majority of my knowledge of Vlad isn't really from research as it was from an Eastern European friend who had a penchant for praising Dracula's strength as the same time as he gloried in stories of Dracula's supposed and real atrocities. Admittedly, Dracula was far from alone from his brutality and sadism; many of his victims were boyars who themselves were incredibly brutal and had a tendancy to expedite the death of the various princes and overlords.
And yeah, folklorish vampires tended to be pretty far from the vampires we know today.
That said, my other inspiration was from pulp English 19th century short stories and novels that seemed fond to portray aristocracy, especially Eastern European aristocrats as vampires. The reasoning behind is complex, somewhat enthnocentric and probably beyond the scope of the game's discussion, but at least part of it had to do with the fact that Eastern Europe was seen as essentially feudal even into the mid to late 18th century.
Vampires then had more dimensions beyond their psychosexual which we tended to focus on - there was also the perception of the vampire as a parasite that undeservedly fed on the labors of others. That metaphor was transferred to hereditary nobility exploiting the masses, and sometimes boomeranged in a looking mirror reflection to speculate on English classes.
Ultimately, I'm inspired as much historically as I am by various pulp fiction with the general ambience of Transylvania as "Don't go into the dark" and "The dead do not rest easy in the cursed soil." Arguably the latter was none too far from the belief of Romanian peasants, who had a penchant for unearthing corpses and had quite a few superstitions that as far as I could understand, revolved around spontaneously appearing undead(all essentially folkloreish vampires, but all pretty far from Bram Stoker'ish vampires).
1. More unit lines.
I like your ideas in general. I suppose I'll have to mock up the unit sprites, see what I came come out with, and eventually do balancing on the units.
The idea of a mainline sword-and-bow infantry line in particular interests me. Wesnoth has quite a few archers who happen to be able to fight melee, but not that many lvl 1 melee fighters that happen to be able to loose arrows back at their foes(with the obvious exception of the Rebel's Elvish Fighter).
The spearmen will be required for balancing as well as thematic reasons. AFAIK, The pointy stick and all its many variants was pretty much the single most common weapon for footmen from the medieval era even to the renaissance. Knights and heavy cavalry defined the battlefield, and with every knight valued strategically as the equal of 24 foot soldiers, it seems reasonable that the infantry support would primarily consist of anything that could potentially bring down a horseman.
And on a tangential, but related note, would you have any artistic depictions of these soldiers? It'll help with my spriting. I'm particularly curous about footmen with maces or clubs - both seem counterintuitive weapons to use when your primary fear is getting impaled by a long lance or being run over by hooves.
2. Wolves shouldn't be fighters.
Wolves occupy an uncomfortable position on my roster. Until you mentioned them, I was giving serious thought to dropping them all together from the list. Their primary raison d'être was to fit in with Dracula myth of wolves and other traditionally disliked animals being their allies.
I think it'll be interesting to give wolves a significant debuff but a 2-4(3-4 at night) attack. At 8-12 damage, its not likely to kill anyone, but it'll very reliably finish off the last few HP of a dying unit. Wolves preying on the weak sounds pretty accurate to their symbolism.
3. Are you sure you want them to be vampires?
First, before I get into the main discussion about the dark knights and the dark lord, there's a very interesting thread of thought I had about the presence of heavy cavalry into Darklands faction.
There's no particular historical reason why a Transylvanian army should have any heavier knights than their western counterparts. My main thread to authenticity were from the Byzantine kataphraktoi who were terrifying in their day. Of course, none of that really makes sense for the insanely expensive kataphraktoi to be in fantasy version of medieval Romania, which was far from a wealthy realm thanks to repeated dominations or attempts at domination from their neighbors.
This made me reidentify these horsemen as the wealthiest members of the Darklands that I could imagine: the boyars. There's no reason historically in my knowledge that they would be entirely different from Western European nobility - some of them must have been soldiers or commanders. And when they did so, I would assume they chose to fight on horseback like western knights.
In fact, for awhile I considered entirely renaming "heavy cavalry" to "boyar", but decided in the favor of clarity. Their boyar origins could be relegated to a description, and all is sane and consistent in my world again. Those fit the idea of a "dark nobleman" quite well for me, given the general unpopularity of the boyars with their peasants.
Onward to more salient discussion. The idea of a Dark Lord that masters demons and undead is interesting, but it seems to serially overlap with the baliff of the Chaos faction. Right now, the Darklands does overlap with the vampire faction, but with a significantly different spin. Dark raiders and marauders seems to be essentially the very same theme as the current Chaos faction.
Nonetheless, both you and I had a remarkably similar idea with village destruction. Originally, I thought about a level in the campaign for Dark Lands where you would be able to burn or destroy captured villages(or even your own villages) in a kind of desperate scorched earth policy which would be remarkably consistent with the symbolism of the faction.
It'll still be interesting if the Darklands had such an ability in multiplayer. Such an ability VERY powerful and unprecedented - potentially upsetting the entire map balance given time since they can eventually shatter the supply of income to their opponent. But it would very much make them an incredibly unique faction with very unique strengths and potentials to play.
Certainly it'll help compensate for the near absolute lack of any siege unit in their arsenal. With the inclusion of a "village destroy" ability, they can be a faction which will have a very difficult time taking enemy villages - but once they've slaughtered the defenders at great loss to themselves?
Cue fields of stakes and mass slaughter. The enemy never ever benefits from that village again.
At any rate, if you're still curious about the progress of this mod, I've started a blog wherein I can ramble at my leisure rather than spamming the forum here. Its in my signature.
PS: Coding really isn't a bother for me. I've worked in the gaming industry on the coding part before, especially with WML, so I feel generally confident especially with the excellent assistance we get from the Code development board.
Mod progress, bad artwork, and other random comments at http://wesnothblog.blogspot.com/
First off, love this whole concept.
Unit idea...
BATS! You need bats, but instead of having a single bat, have a swarm of them. It'll add a week, but usable flying unit, and add allot of atmosphere to see a bunch of bats leading the charge. Or maybe have a unit called "creatures of the night" which would be a swarm of random rats bats bugs and other creepy-crawlies!
EDIT: another idea I just got..
Madmen: A unit describing people that worship vampires, people completely dedicated to there undead masters... They would probably be very thief like... but with more "crazy"... think a guy foaming at the mouth swinging knifes at you acting completely insane... Although fairly weak, very intimidating.(maybe a, fast unit, with a huge amount of low damage attacks, and very low def/HP)
Unit idea...
BATS! You need bats, but instead of having a single bat, have a swarm of them. It'll add a week, but usable flying unit, and add allot of atmosphere to see a bunch of bats leading the charge. Or maybe have a unit called "creatures of the night" which would be a swarm of random rats bats bugs and other creepy-crawlies!
EDIT: another idea I just got..
Madmen: A unit describing people that worship vampires, people completely dedicated to there undead masters... They would probably be very thief like... but with more "crazy"... think a guy foaming at the mouth swinging knifes at you acting completely insane... Although fairly weak, very intimidating.(maybe a, fast unit, with a huge amount of low damage attacks, and very low def/HP)