More Saracens Talk (Moved from Art)

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fmunoz
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More Saracens Talk (Moved from Art)

Post by fmunoz » April 21st, 2006, 9:18 pm

The 1st level archer 5-4 fire arrow damage... they should do have one less attack as firing flaming arrows takes a bit more time and care than normal ones (and maybe 1 less damage... more mass, more air drag, less velocity).

The healer should have bonus to his holy resistance (more on level 2)

21 marksman damage on level 1 from a 40 hp unit seems to much with 18 gold cost.

Falcons should be a bit more expensive, maybe 11 or 12 gold... otherwise you could end with real flocks of them. Not really a problem. But I really dont see how you can direct a non magical animal to do you bidding once past the normal command range.

IMHO it seems a really nice faction but fits poorly with the rest of the other ones... not fantasy enough, a real world name, some strange stats units.
My (only consulting value) vote is to keep them in a addon pack (maybe with official seal)
Getting them done to new standads should really be a awesome feat.

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Post by turin » April 21st, 2006, 10:03 pm

fmunoz wrote:The 1st level archer 5-4 fire arrow damage... they should do have one less attack as firing flaming arrows takes a bit more time and care than normal ones (and maybe 1 less damage... more mass, more air drag, less velocity).
A 4-3 fire attack is nearly worthless. The usually method is to increase damage and decrease strikes - something like 6-3 or 7-3 (one decreases total damage 2, the other increases it 1) would be good.
fmunoz wrote: The healer should have bonus to his holy resistance (more on level 2)
Why? No other units have this. Look at the white mage. If any unit should have such a holy resistance bonus, it should; but it doesn't.
fmunoz wrote:21 marksman damage on level 1 from a 40 hp unit seems to much with 18 gold cost.
Agreed... perhaps 18 marksman damage.

fmunoz wrote:Falcons should be a bit more expensive, maybe 11 or 12 gold... otherwise you could end with real flocks of them. Not really a problem. But I really dont see how you can direct a non magical animal to do you bidding once past the normal command range.
Hypnotism. 8) I dunno...
fmunoz wrote:IMHO it seems a really nice faction but fits poorly with the rest of the other ones... not fantasy enough, a real world name, some strange stats units.
I disagree - the name should change, yes (it's only temporary anyway - like the name "Marauders" for Disto's viking guys), but it certainly seems "fantasy enough" to me.

fmunoz wrote:Getting them done to new standads should really be a awesome feat.
True dat.

BTW, I think the red on some of the units is too saturated. The most egregious example is the 2nd level horse archer.
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fmunoz
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Post by fmunoz » April 21st, 2006, 11:34 pm

fmunoz wrote:
fmunoz wrote: The healer should have bonus to his holy resistance (more on level 2)
Why? No other units have this. Look at the white mage. If any unit should have such a holy resistance bonus, it should; but it doesn't.

Mmmmm they used to have it (IIRC when I created those units I gave the resistances).

They still have the [resitance] tag in the cfg file but at 80... the web SVN versions did not work for old version so no sure when it was removed... IMHO they should get: White mage +40 (60), MoL +60 (40)

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Post by Soliton » April 22nd, 2006, 12:03 am

fmunoz wrote: Mmmmm they used to have it (IIRC when I created those units I gave the resistances).

They still have the [resitance] tag in the cfg file but at 80... the web SVN versions did not work for old version so no sure when it was removed... IMHO they should get: White mage +40 (60), MoL +60 (40)
It's always been at 80. The resistance was added in revision 589 and is still that same way.
The Mage of Light has a 30% holy resistance.
We could of course increase that a bit for both units. (not that it would have any gameplay effect)
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Post by JW » April 22nd, 2006, 1:00 am

Soliton wrote:We could of course increase that a bit for both units. (not that it would have any gameplay effect)
Exactly. Since there's only 3 units that use holy damage, all of which are upgrades. But everyone already knew that.

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Post by fmunoz » April 22nd, 2006, 1:59 am

Soliton wrote:
fmunoz wrote: Mmmmm they used to have it (IIRC when I created those units I gave the resistances).

They still have the [resitance] tag in the cfg file but at 80... the web SVN versions did not work for old version so no sure when it was removed... IMHO they should get: White mage +40 (60), MoL +60 (40)
It's always been at 80. The resistance was added in revision 589 and is still that same way.
The Mage of Light has a 30% holy resistance.
We could of course increase that a bit for both units. (not that it would have any gameplay effect)
The original plan was like that. Seems that I(?) fumbled it. +20 per level of white magic.
And as you(?) do it give an extra +10 per lvel of elvish healer (70/60/50) and a 70 to the paladin too (not sure if I added this last one in ancient times).

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Latest Saracen Release

Post by Lesser Python » April 22nd, 2006, 9:43 am

Guys,

I somehow got Saracen v 0.1. What is the latest release? If it was the one I got, the following mods work with the version of Wesnoth I have. (Disclaimer: I play on Windows. My apologies if this broke anything on other platforms.)

Ranged attacks are now ranged instead of melee.
Falcon and War Falcon have same picture, but now they have one. (Stolen and re-colored from Summoner Era Razor Bird.)
Healer and Master Healer now heal and cure, respectively.

If this faction is going to be used with default factions, it needs severe balancing. Also, why would we choose archers when horse archers do the same damage and move faster?

That said, this faction is still better than anything I've done on my own, and I look forward to seeing it. (Especially if there's a more up to date version.)

Edit: Oops. Needed sleep, v.0.2.1 implements the default factions, also.
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Re: More Saracens Talk (Moved from Art)

Post by Sapient » April 22nd, 2006, 3:58 pm

fmunoz wrote:I really dont see how you can direct a non magical animal to do you bidding once past the normal command range...
And here I thought you were complaining about "not fantasy enough?" :lol:

Probably the falcon should be renamed to something more fantasy-sounding.
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Legendary Falcons

Post by Lesser Python » April 24th, 2006, 2:14 pm

You mean like the clockwork bird from Arabian myth, only mass produced? It would involve a LOT of artwork redo, but is doable.
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Re: More Saracens Talk (Moved from Art)

Post by Eleazar » April 24th, 2006, 3:02 pm

Sapient wrote:
fmunoz wrote:I really dont see how you can direct a non magical animal to do you bidding once past the normal command range...
And here I thought you were complaining about "not fantasy enough?" :lol:

Probably the falcon should be renamed to something more fantasy-sounding.
My thought is the falcons could be somewhat like the Eagles and Rooks in LotR-- not neccesarily larger than normal falcons, but intellegent enough to communicate with people. They could speak a human language, but i think it would be better if the Saracens had learned the secret of speaking the falcon's language (howbeit, with a strong accent :) ). These falcons would be more allies of the Saracens than domesticated servants. No magic need be involved.
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Re: More Saracens Talk (Moved from Art)

Post by Wintermute » April 24th, 2006, 4:37 pm

Eleazar wrote: My thought is the falcons could be somewhat like the Eagles and Rooks in LotR-- not neccesarily larger than normal falcons, but intellegent enough to communicate with people. They could speak a human language, but i think it would be better if the Saracens had learned the secret of speaking the falcon's language (howbeit, with a strong accent :) ). These falcons would be more allies of the Saracens than domesticated servants. No magic need be involved.
I like that idea a lot. They would be similar to the ravens and dwarves/men from Dale, which I thought was an amazingly cool relationship when I read the Hobbit.

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Talking falcons

Post by Lesser Python » April 24th, 2006, 6:06 pm

I agree the concept of talking falcons is cool, and makes for some NEAT campaign dialog when the leader is introduced to them.

Disclaimer: Does this belong to the Saracen faction/mythology?

Counter-Disclaimer: What unit OTHER than the falcon do the Saracens have for water maps (such as Lagoon)?
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Re: More Saracens Talk (Moved from Art)

Post by Sapient » April 25th, 2006, 3:57 am

Eleazar wrote:...i think it would be better if the Saracens had learned the secret of speaking the falcon's language (howbeit, with a strong accent :) ). These falcons would be more allies of the Saracens than domesticated servants. No magic need be involved.
Cool, I like this "saracens speak falcon" idea, Eleazar.
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Re: More Saracens Talk (Moved from Art)

Post by Noy » April 25th, 2006, 8:46 am

fmunoz wrote:The 1st level archer 5-4 fire arrow damage... they should do have one less attack as firing flaming arrows takes a bit more time and care than normal ones (and maybe 1 less damage... more mass, more air drag, less velocity)."
You're using two arguments here, both of which are on shakey ground. Balance wise, no, we need the archer to do this damage, otherwise the faction would be underpowered against the undead. Realism wise, you might have a point, but Kalifa units were renowned in their use of napalm, to the extent that they had hand held naptha throwers (see lvl2 naffatun). Given their technical proficency in the area, its not unrealistic that they could be able to do such damage.

fmunoz wrote:The healer should have bonus to his holy resistance (more on level 2)
The healer is a non magical unit, and the faction is completely based on the non use of magic. When this faction is ready I will have to rewrite the healing/cure description in order to make it coherent with this faction.

fmunoz wrote: 21 marksman damage on level 1 from a 40 hp unit seems to much with 18 gold cost.
We balance according to factions, not units. Since Dragonking, Soliton and myself took over these duties over a year ago, that has been the basis of balancing decisions. Although we reduced to 6-3, this faction needs the ability to attack smallfoot units. Actually this has precipitated a new factional balance. Take for example the orcs balance vs loyalists and the saracens. Assasins would be the mainstay for any orcish attack against a loyalist player. However due to the presence of the healer and the Heavy fighter, Posion is useless, instead an orcish player must rely on Trolls, and as a counter balance against archers, Grunts. This is exactly what we're striving for.
fmunoz wrote: Falcons should be a bit more expensive, maybe 11 or 12 gold... otherwise you could end with real flocks of them.
the point of this is to give the faction a realistic shallow and deep water ability to counter mermen ect, which they lack.
fmunoz wrote: IMHO it seems a really nice faction but fits poorly with the rest of the other ones... not fantasy enough, a real world name, some strange stats units.
fmunoz wrote:evel they are a good compliment to other factions. They have a completely unique movetype (with the possible exceptions of Dwarves), that forces players to develop a new strategy to use these units effectively. As for as for the esthetics, I've spoken Turin about how to fit this faction in with the others, and we've come up with a working basis in "wesnoth history", which I've got to work on.
We have designed this faction from the ground up to be included in the default era. We've been working on this for the last 6 months now, and we've consulted almost every quarter. We're agressively playtesting them, and working to polish them. Given the increasing interest I think 2 months till a release version is ready isn't out of the question.
Last edited by Noy on April 25th, 2006, 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: More Saracens Talk (Moved from Art)

Post by Noy » April 25th, 2006, 8:47 am

Sapient wrote:
Eleazar wrote:...i think it would be better if the Saracens had learned the secret of speaking the falcon's language (howbeit, with a strong accent :) ). These falcons would be more allies of the Saracens than domesticated servants. No magic need be involved.
Cool, I like this "saracens speak falcon" idea, Eleazar.
This was something I had in mind all along. Actually I thought that since they emigrated to the wesnoth desert, they would have encountered new, larger, more intelligent species, that their traditional history with falconry could exploit to tame.

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