Vampires

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Postby Mist » February 14th, 2008, 3:06 am

Huh? Weapon specials, even those filtered by oponent, show correctly on attack choosing screen and are included in probable combat outcome chart. With proper tooltip on the special it'll be no more obfuscated than current tod+resistance calculations.

Achieving what JW thinks about would be pretty simple and straightforward even though might look a bit ugly codewise.
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Postby JW » February 14th, 2008, 4:21 am

megane wrote:
JW wrote:I was wondering if there is a way to code it so that when a "psychic" attack (it would need a weapon special for this if I'm correct) hits an enemy with race "undead" it would do 50% less damage. Against "trolls" it would do 20% less, etc.


I believe I could manage this; what would happen is that the attack would have type "psychic" (meaning that all units would, by default, take %100 from it), along with an invisible weapon special which would change the damage for various races.

Might you be able to throw together a little list of the effective resists I'm going for? IIRC it can be filtered on just about anything, so (for example) it could be %120 effective against units with the Intelligent trait xD

NICE!!!
Aethaeryn wrote:The only problem is that it would be hard to tell what damage that psychic would do to other units...

Yeah, the tooltip would always be wrong, But the weaponspecial could also be called "Psychic" and just have a description of its effects on the different races. It would be patchy for a while....until the EOM starts getting released with the main game and the devs add psychic resists to the default units. :lol:


Um....I'd really have to think about balancing on that one. Right now the monks do arcane and the others impact. Removing that for psychic (as I originally wished) would hurt their effectiveness against UD. Hmm....oh well. I can worry about balancing after the flavor is put back in. :)

IF psychic were to be reimplemented in this fashion....and that's a BIG if....I'd want the resists to look something like this probably....and actually now I'm forgetting whether I wanted intelligent creatures to resist or be prone to such damage. I think they should resist it better, and mindless creatures should be highly resistant/immune so.....

undead = 50% resist
trolls = 20% prone
bats = 30% prone
if possible: mage-types 20% resist (if not possible, no big deal)

Other than that, I can't really justify other changes. Again, I'm not sure if this should be implemented back in though - but I still would like to alter the crusaders sword if possible. If you'd be willing to code that here are the values I think would be good:

vampires = 20% extra damage
undead = 50% extra damage

The reason undead would take more is because they also resist blade more - the new base type of damage for the unit. Holy or whatever is fine for the special's name for now. That can be thought of later.
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Postby Mist » February 14th, 2008, 4:26 am

This doesn't have to be done with a weapon special. You can also make a separate damage type and set an 'recruit' event to add resistances to units that don't have it set (+ a start event to handle leaders), or even 'new turn' event to check for that on turn by turn basis.
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Postby JW » February 14th, 2008, 4:31 am

Mist wrote:This doesn't have to be done with a weapon special. You can also make a separate damage type and set an 'recruit' event to add resistances to units that don't have it set (+ a start event to handle leaders), or even 'new turn' event to check for that on turn by turn basis.

Really? How complicated would that get? I'm still unsure if it's even a good idea to reimplement the damage type, so I don't want anyone to go to a lot of work that might not be used.
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Postby Mist » February 14th, 2008, 4:54 am

Code: Select all
[event]
    name=recruit
    first_time_only=no

    [if]
        [variable]
            name=unit.race
            equals=undead
        [/variable]
        [then]
            [object]
                silent=yes
                [filter]
                    description=unit.description
                [/filter]
                [effect]
                    apply_to=resistance
                    replace=yes
                    [resistance]
                        psychic=150
                    [/resistance]
                [/effect]
            [/object]
        [/then]
     [/if]
#Repeat for all races with non 0 resistance
      {VARIABLE unit.variables.psychic_set 1}
[/event]


Code: Select all
[event]
    name=attack
    first_time_only=no

    [store_unit]
        [filter]
            variables.psychic_set=0
        [/filter]
        variable=some_var
        kill=no
    [/store_unit]

    {VARIABLE i 0}
    {FOREACH some_var i}
    [if]
        [variable]
            name=some_var[$i].race
            equals=undead
        [/variable]
        [then]
            [object]
                silent=yes
                [filter]
                    description=$some_var[$i].description
                [/filter]
                [effect]
                    apply_to=resistance
                    replace=yes
                    [resistance]
                        psychic=150
                    [/resistance]
                [/effect]
            [/object]
        [/then]
     [/if]
#Repeat for all races with non 0 resistance
      {VARIABLE some_var[$i].variables.psychic_set 1}
     {NEXT i}
[/event]


This catches each unit in play once exactly applying resistance value where required and setting a flag to ignnore it in future. The 'attack' event is required for cases of units put on map via [unit] tag as this doesn't trigger the recruit.
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Re: Vampires

Postby Scout Shine » May 17th, 2008, 2:17 am

I used vampires a lot in games, both match ups for fun as well as scenarios, survival and others. So far i've seen them be very effective in orocia and even more so in deep shrine (where lvl 0 sacrifice units are amazingly useful) but i feel overall that they are underpowered, especially in comparison to all the neat tricks and gimmicks that many of the other eom factions have at their disposal. I think they're either lacking a unit or need a couple of their units to be just that little bit more effective.

Gargoyles - very limited attack and not actually that useful in defense. Yes it has high resistances but it can get shot to pieces and is easy to hit and even in combat it takes damage thus making it quite easy to kill. It also isn't quite fast enough to run away either. Overall, i don't see a point for it. It's best defense is in castles - understandable given its background but apart from the defense of a keep... what is it actually really good at? It can't kill anything, it can't really scout well, it cannot really defend all that well. Perhaps give it some more staying power, or more damage or even more res... something. I honestly only recruit these now out of amusement because i liked the gargoyle of the yoshidas and enjoy recruiting one to rename it "gar-kun"... seriously - if you gave them laser eyes then they'd be set! It's level 2 form is slightly more useful but it still quite weak for a level 2 unit i think. Perhaps steadfast would be good for it considering its defensive purpose?

Blood Hulk - right, first query - sometimes when this unit gets a kill that also sets it above xp for next level, it doesn't get +1 hp and resets all hp to max like it should AMLA but instead it just gains the 1hp bonus it gets from feeding - this has gotten my blood hulks killed in the long run as they slowly get whittled down in hp. Are they coded properly or does feeding stop their AMLA bonus of regaining all hp from working? Right, moving on, these units are very useful but making them a one trick pony, by that i mean a lvl 2 - somewhat ogre like unit - that doesn't get any stronger is kind of a shame. Also, their damage type is blade which means that their actual melee ability can be kind of limited as many enemies have blade resistance. So with an average of one attack hitting and this being limited by resistance... they aren't actually that damaging vs other melee units and of course they have no ranged. Finally, though their resistances are praise worthy, their defense is not and i've seen them mobbed and taken down too many times due to lacking ranged and being easily hit and at daytime doing hardly any damage in return, especially against other melee units. This is a little steep considering their cost and level 2 status and how their AMLA bonus doesn't seem to work (at least for me) and lack of a 3rd level. As with gargoyles, their best use is still in just defending a castle. Admittedly, this could be argued for many units but i feel they are lacking a little and part of the reason i think vampires are a little underpowered compared to other eom factions at present. Perhaps give them a 10-3 attack like lvl 2 ogres or up their hp an inch and of course please do see if there is something preventing them replenishing all their hp on lvl?

Bloodborn - these work fine. If anything, having a lvl 0 you can create from a noble that can become up to 4 different units is awesome. These are brilliant little suckers... well, they can't suck blood yet but they're good. Defiantely a highlight of playing vampires and i see them as useful against real opponents too. I've used them as cannon fodder or turned enemy troops into them quite nicely before which has ticked off my enemy. I think these are well balanced.

Fledglings - Very useful unit, sets out to be exactly as you describe it in the eom faction descriptions. Reasonably good hitting with backstab drain melee unit. Very proper - nice and cheap too and with their resistances and other limitations this seems reasonable. Their noble and duelist offshots are also very interesting. I think duelists can be very useful but nobles shine with their plague ability and eventual ranged attack (arcane no less) making them little powerhouses and gems. Perhaps duelist side needs to be more... appealing? By this i mean that they are a melee primary class aimed mostly at doing damaging with their perk being increased ability to hit and very good damage. However, there is already an abundance of melee units for the vampires so nobles, with their lvl 4 limit rather than lvl 3 for peak, seem more preferable. They also have leadership abilities which are always a plus. So perhaps this class could use something else? Skirmishing maybe? An inspire ability? A level 4 version? Old blood? Perhaps with a ranged or maybe even a teleport ability? Something to make them a little more desireous in a melee heavy force. One think i was thinking off a lot - why not nightstalk?

Bats - these are fine ^-^

Thin bloods - archer class and first non melee to be looked at - its half blood and then two lvl 3 choices, one lawful, one not was very interesting. I thought that was quite characterful. I think, from what i've seen, it performs it's support role very well and it fairly priced. I actually like to have at least one of these if not more as they are a cheaper alternative to the vamp mages and more flexible in some ways as a result.

Vamp mages - apprentices right? I enjoy using these as well, although again it can become another more melee focussed class on lvl 2. However their ranged magic tree is impressive and they always prove a useful support class. I also think that even though their melee class doesn't really complement the faction as a whole as its flexibility isn't needed really, it does add a nice bit of flavour. I think they are balanced for their cost but maybe a little fragile?

I think this faction is really enjoyable to play and i praise you for that. I also like their background - reasonably original for vampires without straying too far away from established stereotypes that they wouldn't be recogniseable. However, we've heard how they prey on people in their bio and use creatures as expendables but... what really obvious expendables do they have from a social perspective? Bloodborn are vampires. Bats are expendable i guess. Gargoygles are, according to their bio, defensive. The others are all vampires and thin bloods too. So no real expendable thrall like troops who serve the vampires or stupid servants or others who are paid well or who fight for them out of fear. Why not introduce such a unit? I think it'd really complete the whole faction and round it up nicely and it'd still have no more units than some other factions - it'd be equivalent to loyalists i believe? You could base it on the outlaw classes but keep it unique? So high resistance in terrain and give it a spear - a guard's weapon. Then give it a bow and similar box attack to elf fighter. However, it'd have defenses and hp more like that of a foodpad albeit 5 move? So a spearman/fighter hybrid? Make it neutral. Let it be able to . Explain the lack of hp that it doesn't get the same level of luxury the vampires enjoy. Make it a little cheap too. Perhaps 14 gold like spearmen or elf fighters in fact. However it should have a norm of say 30 hp? As for what it becomes with experience... only one direction perhaps? Keep them a little in like with therian guards/ defenders. Let it become a level two that is just a little more deadly with more hp. Or perhaps give it two directions. One where it slowly becomes a fanatic for its masters - perhaps with a +4 hp healing effect as it knows how to repair gargoyles and can give blood to vampires but in return it loses its spear and gets a dagger and bow. It'd be a kind of vampire worshipper. The other could be the guards who are veterans and get paid well for their services, slowly getting more armour and learning to use a crossbow and acting as a kind of standing army for the vampires who guard their estates during the day and have a dreaded reputation of bloodthirstiness in battle like that of the vampires they serve - but they do it out of greed for the wealth of the vampires that pays them and they don't betray them as over the years their standing company/ national army has garnered respect. It'd be a bit like the history of swiss pikemen or spanish conquistadors.

What do you think? Anyhow, cheers for eom and this faction. I'll happily help with any playtesting you're up to also. Drop me a bell. Oh - last note - love the avatars for vampires too. very cute. The duelists remind me of an anime called black blood brothers... :geek:
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Re: Vampires

Postby Neoskel » May 17th, 2008, 5:32 am

I suggest giving the gargoyles steadfast for a quick fix, and balance from there.
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Re: Vampires

Postby Velensk » May 17th, 2008, 2:07 pm

Replying to your post

Gargoyals, are fairly usefull on defence as it is (high def in open/water, resistance ect.), to increase their attack potential, I was consitering giving them dauntless (steadfast on attacking) So that when you attak you will receive little retaltation from most enemies.

Blood hulks: First of all, blood hulks have a (+5hp +1melee damage) AMLA, so they do get stronger when you lvl them up. Secondly gameplay: Blood hulks 17-2 damage to non-resisters at night is still pretty good, bloodhulks can easily play your wall breakers, but you have to protect them. In my experiance vampires play around trying to protect blood hulks/ and or blood apprentices (depending on enemy) with swarms of fledglings (with maybe a gargoyal or two). Both apprentices, and hulks have immense firepower in certain situations, and hulks are hard to take down if they are properly supported. If your hulk is getting chewed up you can have him run away for awhile, and by the time he gets somewhere he will be healed.

Duelists: Marksmanship on their sword makes up for other things, especialy in mp where lvl 3s rarely show up. Also as of next version their fangs will be divided into 3 strikes rather than the nobles 2.

Apprentices: will be getting slightly more hp in next version, and their fang strikes will be condenced into 1 strike, giving them a chance to heal themselves that potentialy critical 4 hp before their enemy can finish their attack.

Society: Vampires are ruled by the vampire lords, and as far as the vampire lords are concerned; all vampires that are not themselves are expendable, and what's more as the one who can control the human serfs into not rebeling, even when they are being harvested for blood, everyone else relys on him for their food. The rest of the vampires form a kind of aristorcratsy, and either scheme to try to gain power for themselves, or try to suck up to the lord in hopes of gaining more "income". Fledglings each have their own ambitions, but follow the orders of the guy who can supply them with blood. Blood-born are new to the blood and thus don't have the power to even consiter resisting the vampire lords. Thin bloods are people whos human blood resists, and thus are not reguarded as true vampires (just as expendable as anyone else). Bats are expendable. Gargoyals are expendable and entirely obediant. Blood apprentices are those fledglings who have potential for magic, and are rarer and thus usefull. A vampire lord would otherwise wish to expend a less usefull thing, but will of course save his own skin. Blood hulks are constructs of blood magic, and are very large and dumb, but hard to create and usefull, but as with the blood apprentices...

As for adding a mindless human servent unit: vampires prefer their servents to be bound to them, so they'll just turn anyone they need to fight for them into bloodborn.

Hope that answered your questions.
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Re: Vampires

Postby Aethaeryn » May 17th, 2008, 2:14 pm

Velensk wrote:Blood hulks: First of all, blood hulks have a (+5hp +1melee damage) AMLA, so they do get stronger when you lvl them up. Secondly gameplay: Blood hulks 17-2 damage to non-resisters at night is still pretty good, bloodhulks can easily play your wall breakers, but you have to protect them. In my experiance vampires play around trying to protect blood hulks/ and or blood apprentices (depending on enemy) with swarms of fledglings (with maybe a gargoyal or two). Both apprentices, and hulks have immense firepower in certain situations, and hulks are hard to take down if they are properly supported. If your hulk is getting chewed up you can have him run away for awhile, and by the time he gets somewhere he will be healed.

I think he means that the hulks don't full heal on promote/AMLA like every other unit in the game does.
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Re: Vampires

Postby Velensk » May 17th, 2008, 2:23 pm

I see. I could just modify the MONSTER AMLA so that it heals these things to full, I don't see why it would cause a problem (consitering that every other recruitable unit heals to full and becomes a stronger unit).
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Re: Vampires

Postby Scout Shine » May 17th, 2008, 4:03 pm

Aye, Aethaeryn is right and that is what i meant - they don't appear to be getting AMLA - no full heal.

I think the fix for gargoyles would be quite good, i'd like to see that. I think you're right about the blood hulks - i do protect them myself - it's just that without their AMLA working it makes them a little weak for me? As for duelists - I still think they're missing something to make them more appealing. I just always find nobles more useful for their turning ability and leadership. I think apprentices would be a little more interesting with just one nasty bite attack. They use blood magic anyhow right? So it could even be explained that they prefer to just take one long bite to get as much blood as possible to fuel their body and strengthen their magic or something?

As for the society comments - cheers. Does clarify a few things. However, one thing i find which is a little weird - if vampire lords are willing to have the daylight lvl 3 thin blood versions who merely serve them out of loyalty but are essentially human - i don't see why they wouldn't want another unit that serves them out of loyalty and is effective in the day too? They must realise that they are best at night and desire somebody to help them at daytime. And of course just turning someone would completely negate their ability to do just that. So why would they not perhaps desire a core of faithful veteran human warriors to protect them? Perhaps they could just bind them with magic rather than wealth or maybe control over their families? If vampires see themselves as better than human beings then a) they wouldn't want a whole army of vampires as that'd mean sacrificing themselves b) wouldn't they feel even more high and mighty by being served by humans they know they can control?

I'm just a little confused there. If vampires prefer their servants to be bound to them and thus turn them all into vampires by making bloodborn... then where do they get their blood!? All vampire controlled areas must be like... 95% vampires feeding on cattle or something 0_o
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Re: Vampires

Postby Velensk » May 17th, 2008, 4:42 pm

I'm likely to revise the thinblood line to make more sense. The bios were written because I wanted everything to have bios.

Vampires are fairly numerouse, but not as much so as humans. Vampires only need humans as a source of food/manual labor, and as people who can work in daylight, also animals don't like vampires, a vampire lord may be able to charm them, but the lord would not stupe to such mundane labor, and cattle. Besides you can't get vampires from cattle, and human blood tastes better anyway. Also the process of creating vampires takes some of the lords blood, thus he can only do it so often, and it is tireing, however he prefers to have his warriors be vampires.

Vampires Lords do prefer to have vampires fighting for him than humans for a number of reasons.
- Loyalty, he controls humans partialy by fear, and partialy by his charm/glamor/charisma (whichever version you prefer), this works quite well for if he is just making them do things they'd already be doing, just harder, and for him. However battle-tremula can overcome that quite easily, especialy since vampires don't encourage bravery in their subjects. Soldeir who are terrified tend to be incredibly ineffective.
- He would rather not arm his own people, because consitering how he rules them, he'd rather not arm them incase someone incites a revolt.
- Vampires reguard humans as inferior to themselves.

This being said, in my campain, there is a senario where one vampire lord is attacking another, and the second one arouses a milita of his peasants to fight off the invaders. This milita is just standard peasants, but works in the campain setting. However I'm against it for mp, and if I did add a human unit it would make the most sense to me that it would be a lvl 0, and vampires already have a lvl 0.
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Re: Vampires

Postby Scout Shine » May 17th, 2008, 5:05 pm

I didn't mean that vampires would make vampires out of cattle by the cattle comment - merely that the cattle was their source of food. I vaguely remember one bio that lords don't go after human blood all the time as it makes their peasants angry. However, fair enough - you've answered my query.

Oh, with the blood hulks - let me clarify how the AMLA isn't working. It doesn't work when instead feeding kicks in. So if you have one at 21/29 xp and it kills a lvl 1, it doesn't regain all hp but instead goes up 1hp from feeding. It it is at 28/29 xp and attacks a lvl 1 and doesn't kill it, the AMLA works as normal. So the feeding seems to be overriding the levelling?

Good work on the vampires though. I'll look forward to the campaign you're doing. I had one in mind of perhaps a thin blood leading a small revolution for more recognition of human rights but slowly having to use humans as he comes into conflict with other vampires and races and slowly becoming a typical vampire in mindset himself.

Small, probably odd, idea with gargoyles? Why not give them 2 lvl 2 options, a bit like trolls? One with a ranged attack, one as is = margoyle? It'd make them a more flexible unit

Anyhow - just final comments - i think in mp vampires are a bit underpowered - in eom itself and in respect to default and ee. I know in the other thread you said you were going to buff them a little (which i agree is needed) but then you said that the improvements would include a little more hp for apprentices and the like (changes to bite attacks for 2 units). Are there not going to be any other real changes or tweaks? Also - if animals are adverse to vampires then what is the deal with bats? Oh, i suggested the gargoyle idea and others, like for duelists, because i think just one tiny bit more flexibility would aid the vampire faction in terms of balance. One more unit, or one more upgrade choice for example... just something else to make them a little more adaptable to other factions and better rounded?
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Re: Vampires

Postby Velensk » May 17th, 2008, 8:20 pm

Bats are a special case, as they to feed on blood, most animals don't.

Feeding: so you don't get that +1, instead you get a +5. The only downside is no floaty lable thing.

Duelists: All depends what you need, I frequently find duelists useful. The lords plauge is realy a minor thing for me, but leadership is usefull. However a dulests but 7-4 marksman is much better than 8-3. especialy at night, and that extra move is not to be dismissed.

Use of gargoyals: guarenteed flying 6 move, mobile meatsheild that resists one of your most common weaknesses, and neutral damage. their ability to hold open areas from enemies with spears/bows at any time of day or to plug spaces around blood hulks makes them usefull. Dauntless will make them take less damage when they try to attack something.

Balancing for vampires currently planned:

Changes to number of strikes on fangs
2 traits (including strong trait for some)
slight increase to apprentice hp
dauntless for gargoyal line
arcane ranged attack on blood apprentice up to 9-2

It may not seem like much, but it will make them stronger, and I know that already they can be strong when played correctly (though they are a little behind so they are getting a little stronger).
I already use gargoyals in my play, but I figure they could use an little extra offensive boost, and that is one that is fitting.

Campain: Nothing at all like what you said. You'll be able to see when it's finished.

Your suggestions: The EoM is desperatly behind on artwork. I'm avoiding makeing new lines untill I can catch up in this. Remember I not only maintain the vampires, but all the other factions in the era.

Also: I don't mean to offend you, but I havn't seen you play, and thus I'm a little reluctant to take balancing suggestions from you, if you see me on the server we could play a few games maybe to demostrate what we know, but for right now please accept that I know the vampires pretty well, and can gage about what they need. This is not to say that feedback isn't appreciated, but it won't nessisarily be acted on, unless I have the reason, time, and art to act on it. Right now I'm wondering how strong the vampires will get once all those fledglings get that extra trait, and other things of that nature. After the next version is released (an event planned to happen within the next week) I will re-evaluate.
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Re: Vampires

Postby Scout Shine » May 17th, 2008, 10:23 pm

Apologies if i was headstrong in my suggestions. I just wanted to inspire a little discussion and get a few thoughts off my chest. I think the 2nd traits for vampires will certainly aid them. After playing with you i can see that duelists are more useful than i first realised however i still disagree with the usefulness of gargoyles. I'll reserve further comment though to after the next lot of modifications are made. They seem promising. Lots of small changes but i can see how they'll add up to create a welcome little buff for the blood suckers!

Ps) Cheers for the games and thanks for considering my feedback. I know i'm a forum newb but i'll try to be useful. I'm not offended that you're reluctant to hear advice from someone who is new and unproven - that is just a sound and cautious mindset. I can see why you were put in charge of eom!
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