Extended Era revived - version 36

[Wen Yang]

Good point on that Steppe Orc/Drake matchup, the Orcs kinda lacking in pierce and only having an expensive (and not too powerful at 4-4) cold user, plus their weakness to fire...

[Shadow]

Well it was just a observation and I'm a mediocre player but I still know how to play them at least I helped creating them.

I know that I must use the speed atvantage to grab most of the Villages which works in the opening but later it gets harder because their shieldbearer can block some key villages for a long time and one or two Gryphon are not able to get them out. With water the whole stuff looks even worse because of the nagas.

The prize tag doesn't help either because I spend the first turn on expensive scouts who are not able to compete with them for cost. Less Swordmann and less Pikeman in the end I loss most of the gained map and only try to survive.

I don't know how it goes for drakes but the steppe orcs act like a steamroller. I don't mind if the Steppe Hunter gets cheaper and even gets a further movement point but either slow or skirmish has to go he can get it back from an advancement but both together is overkill.

[Wen Yang]

Well it was just a observation and I'm a mediocre player but I still know how to play them at least I helped creating them.

I know that I must use the speed atvantage to grab most of the Villages which works in the opening but later it gets harder because their shieldbearer can block some key villages for a long time and one or two Gryphon are not able to get them out. With water the whole stuff looks even worse because of the nagas.

Well, if you're trying to dislodge shieldbearers using Eagle riders (Closest thing I can find in the aragwaithi to the gryphons), all I can say is good luck.

Only relatively easy way I found to dislodge shieldbearers is a good application of a mage-type, warlocks are perfect for the aragwaithi since the orcs have no fire resistance. I'll agree those shieldbearers are seriously good for their cheap price though.

[Shadow]

Yup but what else to use. Scouts with their vulnerability to pierce and no ranged. The Shieldbearer just laughs at them.

Another problem was for me that slow cutted the damage of the magical fire (another question actual why?).

No serious, how to describe I played small maps with great water or cave areas in the middle (or a mix of both). The middle was blocked by nagas and one or two shieldbearer. That left me with to the left or the right flank.
Most games with Aragwaith end though attrition. Most of the time I pick one target kill it and try to stop the advancing troops by either blocking with a full health eagle or just sacrifice a wounded swordman that blocks the enemy for one turn. Giving me time to regroup.
Most of the time he inflicts some damage because of his high base damage if the enemy uses a mage or a ranged good luck for me one less who mauls my healthier troops.
Skirmish and slow completly nullifies this tactic.

Harrasing with Scouts or eagles doesn't really work because if I do one wrong step they get slowed and killed in 2 rounds.

Just my two cents I think they could need an adjustment but well if no one else has the problem.

[Vendanna]

Harrasing with Scouts or eagles doesn't really work because if I do one wrong step they get slowed and killed in 2 rounds.

Just my two cents I think they could need an adjustment but well if no one else has the problem.

Well I didn't played with the aragwaithi but against it and it looks a faction that abuses his great movility and damage in order to score a win.

So they excel like drakes on big maps, in which they could use the eagles and other fast units to grab more villages faster than other races and then win by attrition since most of your units should be able to take other scouts in one on one without too much problems.

Other thing I noticed is that the dwarves literally crush the undead if there is a bunch of bad terrain with their big hitters being impact type (gyrocopter bomb and the charging bike) paired with the thunderers the dwarves looks more like a 1-hit kill whonder faction that was nowhere the old knalgan idea of versatility on weapon types, this is true on small maps like charge since you can overcome the undead fast and hurt them in bad terrain.

between, its possible for the php that generates the units trees to show also the gold cost of the unit? while its not so important for the second level its nice to have to check the units prices before trying a faction.

[Shadow]

I wouldn't say abuse I would say "fight unfair if it means you can still fight tomorrow".

[Noyga]

Here some changes/possible changes i plan for the next release :
Aragwaithi:
- (perhaps) Increase the Flagbearer movement to 5 to make it more useful ?

Chaos:
- decrease the crabs melee by 1 damage pt.

Loyalists:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove the two extra mermens from the recruitment list

Northerners:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove two extra nagas from the recruitment list
- (proably) decrease the orcish shaman ranged attack from 8-2 to 7-2

Outlaws:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove the Naga warrior from the recruitment list

Steppe orcs:
- (i don't know exactly what i'll do) power up the Herders
- (i don't know exactly what i'll do) power down the Shieldbearers
- (i don't know exactly what i'll do) power down the Hunters

Wood Elves:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove all the Mermens and mage from the recruitment list
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) add a new fire fairy unit line (some kind of flying mage (5 moves, fly movetype)). I would need some names for the lvl 1 -> lvl 3 units. Some level 2 & 3 different sprites might be nice too (currently i would use something like jb's avatar).

Any comments, extra ideas ?

[Wen Yang]

Here some changes/possible changes i plan for the next release :
Aragwaithi:
- (perhaps) Increase the Flagbearer movement to 5 to make it more useful ?

Chaos:
- decrease the crabs melee by 1 damage pt.

Loyalists:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove the two extra mermens from the recruitment list

Northerners:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove two extra nagas from the recruitment list
- (proably) decrease the orcish shaman ranged attack from 8-2 to 7-2

Outlaws:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove the Naga warrior from the recruitment list

Steppe orcs:
- (i don't know exactly what i'll do) power up the Herders
- (i don't know exactly what i'll do) power down the Shieldbearers
- (i don't know exactly what i'll do) power down the Hunters

Wood Elves:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove all the Mermens and mage from the recruitment list
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) add a new fire fairy unit line (some kind of flying mage (5 moves, fly movetype)). I would need some names for the lvl 1 -> lvl 3 units. Some level 2 & 3 different sprites might be nice too (currently i would use something like jb's avatar).

Any comments, extra ideas ?

The Aragwaithi flagbearer is a pretty darn useful unit though, with resistances equivalent to a dwarvish guardsmen plus steadfast plus protection plus marksman and first strike on its two attacks... I wouldn't exactly say it's not usable due to its speed, since it and the Guard line are THE aragwaithi units to use for defensive purposes, while still retaining their heavy offense capability.

If you remove the nagas from the Outlaw, a replacement water unit would be needed there, I think, although with the crab's addition it looks like you are planning to put some new water units for the new factions, which is of course, an excellent idea.

Maybe an upgrade to the Herder's magical offense? 4-4 is pretty pathetic for a 21 gold unit. Their high HP and decent melee could stay since they are after all orcs.

Shieldbearer nerfing: Either make them more expensive, or decrease their resistances to around 20-30% instead of the 40-50% it is now. Right now they can only be reasonably removed with application of mages.

As for the hunter... maybe more expensive or as suggested give skirmish only to the level 2 version?

[Weeksy]

you don't try to dislodge a shieldbearer that's on a village... you try to get rid of the army around it, so you can just plink away at it with ranged attacks, levelling it quickly enough that it sucks upkeep off of them while providing a hefty xp bonus to you... an intelligent archer can quickly level, and good ranged damage=bad news for steppes... I bring up my idea gain of giving the aragwaith spearmen some pierce resist... it would combat the hunter some... or just make one of the aragwaith units (possibly the eagles, they are supposed to be magical) immune to slowing... as for downgrading the steppe orcs, I think that if you lowered the hunter's resists to something nearer elusivefoot's, or just lowered their hp significantly, you could get away with giving the herder 5-4 if not 8-3

[Temuchin Khan]

Outlaws:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove the Naga warrior from the recruitment list

When will you add the pirates to the Outlaw faction?

[Shadow]

Here some changes/possible changes i plan for the next release :
Aragwaithi:
- (perhaps) Increase the Flagbearer movement to 5 to make it more useful ?

...

He is darned usefull I don't know why I should take the other advancement (The other advancement is good too just overshaded).

you don't try to dislodge a shieldbearer that's on a village... you try to get rid of the army around it, so you can just plink away at it with ranged attacks, levelling it quickly enough that it sucks upkeep off of them while providing a hefty xp bonus to you... an intelligent archer can quickly level, and good ranged damage=bad news for steppes... I bring up my idea gain of giving the aragwaith spearmen some pierce resist... it would combat the hunter some... or just make one of the aragwaith units (possibly the eagles, they are supposed to be magical) immune to slowing... as for downgrading the steppe orcs, I think that if you lowered the hunter's resists to something nearer elusivefoot's, or just lowered their hp significantly, you could get away with giving the herder 5-4 if not 8-3

Most of the time they sit behind the enemy lines and I harass with eagles so no Archers. I get them easily out of villages If they are at the front no problem.

The Spearman itself is a stable unit better with than without. The eagle is good too. The Archer bucks me the most while his damage is impressive he is too fragile for the cost if he gets immunity to slow I would even pay for him.

[Noyga]

Outlaws:
- (perharps in a separate version of the era) remove the Naga warrior from the recruitment list

When will you add the pirates to the Outlaw faction?

No they would still have the Naga Hunter...

In fact i'm not found of pirats (human swimmer) :
- humans on a boat makes senses on the water, but on the grounds it doesn't work well. Yes that can leave the boat but they will logically have to come back at the same point (to their ship) if they want to cross some water.

[Temuchin Khan]

When will you add the pirates to the Outlaw faction?

No they would still have the Naga Hunter...

In fact i'm not found of pirats (human swimmer) :
- humans on a boat makes senses on the water, but on the grounds it doesn't work well. Yes that can leave the boat but they will logically have to come back at the same point (to their ship) if they want to cross some water.

He could be carrying a small coracle while on land, and sitting in it while in the water like the IE Marauder Boatsman. Granted, we wouldn't want terribly many units like that, but as long as we make sure there are only one or two, it wouldn't be a bad idea. Some sort of Pirate unit would seem to be the best fit for an Outlaw water unit.

Still, even if they won't have pirates, would it not be possible to come up with something other than nagas? There must be some other sort of sea creature or flying creature that could be used.

How about something from Japanese lore?

Code: Select all

Kappa -> Kawako -> Gatarou -- wrestle impact melee slow attack

Kappa smell like fish and are generally portrayed with the body of a tortoise, ape-like head, scaly limbs, long hair circling the skull, webbed feet and hands, and yellow-green skin. They are often depicted with a tortoise shell attached to their backs.

The defining characteristic of the Kappa is the hollow cavity atop its head. This saucer-like depression holds a strength-giving fluid....

About the size of a child aged 6 to 10, the Kappa is nonetheless incredibly strong. It attacks horses, cattle, and humans, usually dragging its prey into the water, where, according to various legends, it feeds on their blood, or drains their life force, or pulls out their livers through their anuses, or sucks out their entrails, leaving nothing behind except a hollow gourd. Stories tell of Kappa pulling little children into the water and drowning them.... As drowning victims were sometimes found with a distended anus (swollen rectal), the Kappa is also sometimes called the shirokodama (anus) vampire. In some tales, the Kappa is associated with theft and raping women.

Kappa are mostly evil, but not always.... In addition, the Kappa is always portrayed as trustworthy despite its many evil ways. When captured and forced to promise never again to harm anyone, the kappa always keeps its promise. Kappa often help or mentor those who outwit them or capture them....
The chief delight of the quarrelsome Kappa is to challenge humans to single combat. Indeed, the Kappa delights in Japanese Sumo wrestling, and often challenges its victim to a sumo bout.

[Wen Yang]

Just in case, here is how I view the aragwaithi. If I happen to be off the mark , someone who has a better idea about them (like one of their makers) please let me know. Going alphabetically:

Aragwaith Archer: Fragile as heck at 25 HP, but the offense is more than crazy enough to justify the 15 gp cost, in my opinion. 5-4 ranged attack, equal to the Elvish Archer that costs 2 gp more, and packing a melee attack of 6-3, again, equal to the Orcish Grunt at damage potential, all in one unit? Fragile it may be, but there is simply no way to attack this unit without taking a relatively nasty counterattack.

Aragwaith Strongbow: Still very fragile at only 35 base HP, but again, relatively insane offense makes up for it. The 8-4 ranged attack is only 1-4 lower than his Elvish Marksman counterpart, while the 9-3 melee is similarly 1-3 points lower than an Orcish Warrior. Pretty darn good for a unit that is supposed to be a simple archer-type, I'd say.

Aragwaith Greatbow/Slayer: This part is one that kind of confused me, to be honest. The more ranged-oriented Greatbow has more HP than the melee-oriented Slayer, which sounds kind of wierd in that regard. Their offense is still plain crazy and in my opinion more than makes up for the fragileness. Any unit that packs the ranged punch of an Elvish Sharpshooter and the melee power of an Orcish Warlord is not to be trifled with. The Slayer is nasty as heck at melee, and packs still-nasty ranged attack to boot, although I think these two units might be better with their HPs reversed, so the melee Slayer has more HP than the ranged Greatbow.

Aragwaith Swordsman: The cheap spammable melee grunt-type. At the price of 13 gp, a 6-4 attack is plain nasty. Low HP is a liability all Aragwaith units share, so it's not a glaring fault. I often find these quite useful to throw on my enemies in near-suicidal attacks preceding the real push by the rest of the army.

Aragwaith Guard/Shield Guard: One of the few aragwaith units suitable for holding ground defensively, acceptable HP and good resistances, while still packing a nasty as heck offense (36 points at level 2, 48 at level 3). Put a flagbearer-type next to one of these and unless your enemy got plenty of fire/cold type attacks, they'll be taking lots of damage trying to dislodge these guards.

Aragwaith Longswordsman/Swordsmaster: The more offensive-minded promotions of the Swordsman. Having 1 more MP than the guards but lacking the defensive potential, with marginally better offense. These have more strikes than the guards, so I usually make any strong swordsman into one of these, as 11-5 offense at the end if just plain nasty. Works well when you really need to hurt things, in my opinion.

Aragwaith Spearman: Nice to use for defensive purposes early on, since they have a decent base HP of 30, and their first strike 11-2 attack is equally nasty on the counterattack. Worth their 15 gp price in my opinion, although maybe they could use a token ranged attack like the loyalist spearman, since the aragwaith lacks ranged attacks as a whole.

Aragwaith Flagbearer/Captain: Awesome. Low HP, but it has good resistances, combined with steadfast, AND an ability that grants +20% resistances all over the board to any unit surrounding it. Plain perfect for anchoring any defense you might want to mount. On top of all that, it STILL packs the usual aragwaithi offense, although I think having marksman on this unit might be a bit overpowered. Maybe move the marksman to the Longswordsman/Swordmaster line instead? The defensive potential of the Flagbearers is more than enough to make them very useful, IMO. That might also make people actually advance some pikemans as well.

Aragwaith Pikeman/Guardian: Compared to the flagbearer, they feel kinda lacking. Very good offense, with first strike, and more than enough power on each strike to make that first strike potentially all that is needed, but maybe a token range attack might make people choose them more. As is, unless I'm facing Drakes/lots of cavalry, most of my advanced spearman would simply go flagbearer.

Aragwaith Warlock/Wizard/Sorcerer: Let's see. Low HP? Typical of any mage-type. 7-3 magical ranged offense? About as good as it gets for a level 1 unit. 6-2 melee? Pretty good for a mage-type, actually. Heals as well? Very very good. All for 18 gp? Heck yeah. Your all-in-one mage, level 2 packs more punch and cures, with level 3 adding even more punch and TELEPORT. Probably one of my favorite mage-type units in the entire game.

Aragwaith Scout/Lancer/Silver Shield: Pretty good scouts, does what they need to do well, with pretty good offense for being scouts. Can work as a mobile strike force when needed, although they're far from the best on the defense. The level 2 and 3 units pack some serious punch for scout-type units, and with those spears, they usually rip apart fellow mounted scouts rather easily.

Aragwaith Eagle Rider/Eagle Master: Slower, less powerful, cheaper gryphons, with similar uses. Also serves as the faction's only passable "tank" at level 1. Pretty nice all in all, and worth the price on most occasions.

[General Mac]

Just from playing as them a couple of times, the Dark Elves sorceror unit is underpowered. Not only does he cost more than the human mage but he can't get to lvl 4 and at lvl 1 and also he is way worse because of the lack of melee. He should have some sort of melee for lvl's one and two that in my opinion would make him more useful.