Moo

Extended Era revived - version 36

It's not easy creating an entire faction or era. Post your work and collaborate in this forum.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
Weeksy
Posts: 1017
Joined: January 29th, 2007, 1:05 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Weeksy »

A few things: Naga Hunter needs a level 2 as soon as possible, it's turning almost useless in long games, especially since the outlaws are already fairly weak ATM. The Sidhe additions should probably be decided on once we can get a list of what matchups they are currently underpowered in. The Sidhe images would do well with some retouching, as is, for some reason I'm not sure how to explain, they get wierd magenta patches to fade in on the edges of their hexes at times if the game stands still. As I said above, outlaws are rather sucky right now, especially the rogue mage, it's almost useless. And last but not least, I've heard a few complaints that most of these factions are fairly small.
Discuss? :D
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
Truper
Posts: 139
Joined: May 16th, 2006, 6:06 pm

Post by Truper »

To me, the biggest problem with Nagas in the Era is that they are everywhere. Notherners, Steppe Orcs, Outlaws, and Chaos all use them. Too much duplication is bad, especially to someone that has never really liked the fact that in mainline, Loyalists and Rebels share the mage ;) A related problem is that the Dark Elves use the Vampire Bat, to give them a unit that can move over water. Its pretty clear that the era needs more flying/swimming units to choose from.
User avatar
Nova
Posts: 141
Joined: October 23rd, 2006, 9:23 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA

Post by Nova »

There are a few "fish" units here and there that don't seem to be specifically associated with any faction.

The cuttlefish and sea serpent are already Mainline miscellaneous units. I'm sure I've seen others as minor baddies in various campaigns; perhaps someone out there has a better memory than I. I'm sure I've seen them, and never been able to hire them myself.

Both of those existing units are bruisers, so they'd probably end up being high-level units, but it shouldn't be too difficult to fill in the lower levels if you want a quick start at making a swimming unit.

Sea Snake -> Greater Sea Snake -> Sea Monster -> Sea Serpent


In short, I'd also like to see more swimming units. It doesn't have to default to Nagas. The sea is already full of gross stuff, like eels and things. That's not even touching the vast depths of land-creature-riding-a-sea-creature.

Thoughts!

School of Fish: Miserable attack, incredible speed, very difficult to hit. A low-cost scout unit that's limited to the waterways, but helps keep tabs on the action anywhere there's a river.

Wose-Riding-A-Shark: I'm not sure if this would upgrade to Elder-Wose-Riding-A-Shark, or Wose-Riding-A-Killer-Whale. I leave that up to popular vote, I suppose.
Attachments
Crushinate.png
Crushinate.png (13.3 KiB) Viewed 2540 times
"Never underestimate the power of the fish rush." "I don't think nagas are fish." "Fish Rush!"
---
Flight to Freedom: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... &start=690
Co-Author, Maintainer
User avatar
Temuchin Khan
Posts: 1732
Joined: September 3rd, 2004, 6:35 pm
Location: Player 6 on the original Agaia map

Post by Temuchin Khan »

Truper wrote:To me, the biggest problem with Nagas in the Era is that they are everywhere. Notherners, Steppe Orcs, Outlaws, and Chaos all use them. Too much duplication is bad, especially to someone that has never really liked the fact that in mainline, Loyalists and Rebels share the mage ;) A related problem is that the Dark Elves use the Vampire Bat, to give them a unit that can move over water. Its pretty clear that the era needs more flying/swimming units to choose from.
I fully agree. I've tried several times to find other sorts of air and/or sea units from the mythologies of various nations, but so far my ideas have not been used.

Maybe the some of them should have an air unit rather than a water unit.

Here's one idea: In Sicilian legend, there are small creatures called Folletti, Wind Knots, Salvanelli, Sumascazzo, and/or Grandinilli which have control over the weather and enjoy causing storms and riding the winds.

Would this fit with any of the existing factions?
Legowarrior
Posts: 40
Joined: February 10th, 2007, 9:47 pm

Post by Legowarrior »

Someone suggested Pirates for the Outlaws, which is an interesting idea if you ask me.

For the Sidhe, maybe a flying unit, like storm elemental, would fit the theme. A cold/fire ranged attack, and a impact melee attack.

The dark elves should have some sort of serpent, with poison, that would have good movement in caves, swamps and water, and good few attacks.

That's all I can think of for those sides.
User avatar
irrevenant
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3692
Joined: August 15th, 2005, 7:57 am
Location: I'm all around you.

Post by irrevenant »

Selkies (seal people) would be cool. I'm not sure which faction they'd best suit, though.

As for a flying unit, Great Eagles are quite common in fantasy fiction (including, of course, LoTR) - they might suit the Dark Elves well. Assuming Dark Elves are Chaotic, Giant Owls might be more suitable though.
User avatar
Noyga
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1790
Joined: September 26th, 2005, 5:56 pm
Location: France

Post by Noyga »

I'm back from some vacations, and quickly updated the eras (only translations : german, catalan and italian translation has been updated).

About the nagas, the real problem is the lack of available air/water units for the factions (especially graphics).
- Aragwaithi : Eagles Riders = OK
- Chaos : Naga Fighter = Temporary unit.
I had two ideas of replacements : Imps or/and mariliths (something like a fire-friendly naga with more arms)
- Dark Elves : Vampire bat = Temporary unit.
I had an idea of a living giant bat (lvl1, not undead, through it mght be difficult to make them enough distinctive from the undead ones) or a bat rider
- Drakes : OK
- Dwarves : 'copters = looks OK
- Wood Elves : Mermen = OK
- Kalifa : falcons = maybe OK ?
- Loyalists : Mermen = OK
- Northerners : Nagas = OK
- Outlaws : I like the Nagas too here, but a pirat might be nice
- Sidhe Elves : Spirit = OK, and i do like Truper/Mythological's Ice Wyrm idea
- Steppe orcs : Naga Guardian = placeholder.
I don't have any good idea of replacement.
- Undead : bats/ghosts = OK

About Truper/Mythological Sidhe comment suggestions i am aware that the sidhe have a problem (maybe less in the x.* for BfW 1.3). The suggestions looks good and i downloaded Mythological's test Era. I hadn't time to playtest it yet, through.
Maybe that ice thrower is not needed (given you already have Ice Wyrms) ?
"Ooh, man, my mage had a 30% chance to miss, but he still managed to hit! Awesome!" ;) -- xtifr
Weeksy
Posts: 1017
Joined: January 29th, 2007, 1:05 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Weeksy »

For the Steppe Orcs, I love the naga guardian, and if the normal orcs can ally with the nagas, why can't the orcs from the steppe do the same, albeit with a more resilient unit. Up the guardian's cold weakness to 0% and you'll be fine the way it is. I quite like that faction the way it is except for shieldbearers. ZOC one of them in some terrain like mountains (very easy to do with Knalgans/Dwarves) and you can just suck xp off of them with ranged attacks. Their XP requirement is so low that they will usually level quickly enough that they don't die before level 3 (if managed properly) and provide easy access to winning. giving them a 2-2 ranged (defense only) attack of some type would balance this, but I'm not sure how to justify this while keeping the spirit of the unit.
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
Legowarrior
Posts: 40
Joined: February 10th, 2007, 9:47 pm

Post by Legowarrior »

I had a thought. No other faction has a cavalry unit as a starting unit. This gives the Kalifa a big adventure at start up, or at least it could give them an advantage. I would take it out.

I think the Falcon unit is a little powerful, especially for its level. Here are some ideas that I think could help balance them.
1) Increase the power of all the units in the chain, but only slightly. Then make them level 1 and 2 units respectively, with higher cost and higher XP Need.

2) Make them lawful units, so that they fit the rest of the sides units. Falcons are primarily day hunters anyway. Or so I think.

3) Falcons with intelligence are way to easy to level up. I propose that either the XP needed is increased, or Intelligence is taken out as an option for them. If they become a Lawful unit, give them Fearless instead.


As for the Steppe Orcs, why not something like Walrus People, with giant tusks, and great stone weapons?

And for the Outlaw, outlaw Mermen, but call them pirates still. That would have some similar traits as that of other outlaws.
A general idea for the Mermen outlaws would be chaotic, with faster movement rate, lower resistance, higher defense, and a ranged attack of some sort. Maybe give them backstab as well, to set it all off.
I see the mermen outlaws going from basic unit to either specialized melee, specialized in ranged, or a leadertype unit. All mermen outlaws would be better on land then regular mermen, to emphasis there ability to sneak up to coastal towns, and steal them.
An odd ability could be to have a specialized version that could get a water version of ambush.
Those are just some random thoughts.
User avatar
F8 Binds...
Saurian Cartographer
Posts: 622
Joined: November 26th, 2006, 3:13 pm
Location: Mid-Western United States

Post by F8 Binds... »

"water ambush"= submerge- ability to remain invisible in deep water. problem is that skeletons have this already.
Proud creator of 4p- Underworld. Fascinated by Multiplayer design and balance.
I am the lone revenant of the n3t clan.
Weeksy
Posts: 1017
Joined: January 29th, 2007, 1:05 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Weeksy »

Legowarrior wrote:I had a thought. No other faction has a cavalry unit as a starting unit. This gives the Kalifa a big adventure at start up, or at least it could give them an advantage. I would take it out.
Aragwaith have a cavalry unit, and it's not as if the kalifa horses are stronger or faster than most other faction's scout units. Modifying the kalifa in any way but to take out intelligent from the falcon would be a big mistake IMO. They have a balance of sorts, and the only real reason falcons are easy to level is their movement. Most other level 0's would level faster if they had the movement the falcon (which hunts at dusk, mainly) has.

nonetheless, I think that intelligent because they are so easy to level, taking intelligent out of the mix might be smart. Adding a different trait, such as 70% def. over deserts, mountains and lava (due to the thermal currents) instead might be nice though.
Legowarrior wrote:As for the Steppe Orcs, why not something like Walrus People, with giant tusks, and great stone weapons?
I strongly feel that the art for the naga guardian meshes well with this faction, and that a unit of this type is just what the Steppe Orcs need, as a good, strong tank to take on ranged units. As is, ranged units are the death of the steppe orcs, so I might add something to them, but I really like the naga guardian.

As for the outlaws, I like the idea of mermen as opposed to boating units, but I also think that the Naga Hunter is too good a unit (And needing in level ups, probably just a level 2) to go to waste. I've always thought a wader-style unit, with fine defense in swamps and shallow water but the inability to go into deep water would be interesting, and I think that this could be the water unit for the Chaos. I'll work on a sprite of some sort of hellish creatures like this pretty soon.
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
CIB
Code Contributor
Posts: 625
Joined: November 24th, 2006, 11:26 pm

Post by CIB »

If you ask me, a flying fast level 0 unit at the cost of 10 gold should be worthless in battle and only useful for taking villages.
User avatar
F8 Binds...
Saurian Cartographer
Posts: 622
Joined: November 26th, 2006, 3:13 pm
Location: Mid-Western United States

Post by F8 Binds... »

It does have a 6-1 charge attack, which can have a good chance of killing any 12 hp unit or lower.
Proud creator of 4p- Underworld. Fascinated by Multiplayer design and balance.
I am the lone revenant of the n3t clan.
Legowarrior
Posts: 40
Joined: February 10th, 2007, 9:47 pm

Post by Legowarrior »

About Kalifa horsemen, I'm not saying to take them out of the game, although they are really powerful. It's just a recent discussion pointed out that no side in the original game gets a leader with a movement greater then 6. The argument is that having a high movement at the start of the game gives an advantage in the very beginning when stealing villages and the like.
So, all I'm proposing is that the Kalifa don't get a cavalry unit as a leader.
Kalis
Posts: 199
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

Just a few comments/suggestions: I admit my comments may be potentially biased due to the fact I'm primarily playing survivals, where you often face tier2s and 3s rather than 1s.

Aragwaith
The faction is really interesting in how inter-linked their units are wizards heal and do damage, flagbearers provide protection, etc.. However, their level 2 units just die too easily, unless they have resilient/strong (which is not something you can guarantee). And if you manage to get quick...
:: shudders ::

Flagbearers:
In order to stand them in the battleline, I found that most maps force them to end up in grass rather than terrain.
40% defense, 40% resists due to steadfast, but 34hp. With just a bit of bad luck, they can easily be killed in 1 turn.

Longswordsman:
A level 2 with 38hp, and only 20% blade resist. Suicide. Not a choice. You're forced to go Guards, which have marginally better resists and 40 hit points.

Archers/Strongbow/Slayer or Greatbow:
Frankly, these units confuse me. They have fewer hit points than elvish archers, and don't have the high 70% block that elvish archers can get.
Although they have good damage, they're like glass cannons.

If a level 1 archer ends up with quick... a double hit by an orcish grunt at night (12-2) would be capable of killing it.

Chaos Daemons
While the lesser daemon is useful for it's versatility and 70% forest block, the chaos daemon is really questionable.
HP:46 MP:6 XP:90
melee: 6 - 4 (7-4 night)
ranged: 8 - 3 (firststrike) (10-3 night)

I'm not sure that ranged attack or melee attack is worth for a level 2. The winged daemon moves faster, has 60% defense in all terrain, and hits at 17-2 at night-time as opposed to 10-3).
Also, isn't it a bit strange that supernatural beings are vulnerable to blade/pierce/impact attacks?
Post Reply