The Era of Myths 5.19.0

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Postby Jester » March 11th, 2006, 6:37 pm

I haven't read your entire thread yet, but I really like the 'Tear' idea.
If the Werewolves are added to this Era the Rabid Wolf could really use this type.
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Postby JW » March 11th, 2006, 9:14 pm

Jester wrote:I haven't read your entire thread yet, but I really like the 'Tear' idea.
If the Werewolves are added to this Era the Rabid Wolf could really use this type.

I'm leaning against adding this as a damage type that is listed, though it could still be used. All units that don't have the type defined in their move_types would have 0% resistance to it, which is what I imagine nearly all units would have anyway...although perhaps not...

Tell you what, if you have several units that plan on using this type in your Werewolf faction I'll probably add it to accomodate. It was intellectually appealing to add anyway for the simple fact that it is a damage type that is currently indescribable with Blade / Pierce / Impact. If your units will use the damage type then there is a practical appeal to it as well. :)


Now, for another thought I had which I am just tossing out as an idea:
Fire / Water / Earth / Air
Would this be compelling? I'm inclined to go with the Hot / Cold duality and the Lunar / Solar duality more than the elementals, because really, how many units would do Air damage? Any thoughts though?
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Postby Neoriceisgood » March 11th, 2006, 9:31 pm

JW wrote:
JW wrote: :?: Psychic (Mental, Mind) - attacks that affect the mind

I think this might be neat to add as it would having interesting resistancies across units. Intelligent units would be effected more and unintelligent ones less. This is not referring to the Trait, though it would be neat to have the Trait also possibly decrease the resistance by 10%!!

I imagine Undead resist = 100%
Troll resist = 50%
Orc resist = 20%
Human resist = 0%
Mage units resist = -20% to -50%

Could have very interesting gameplay. I'm seriously considering it.


Wouldn't it work the other way around? Psychic attacks attack the mind directly, a weak (unintelligent) mind could barely defend itself against this as it''s easily tricked by illusion, and would fail to understand how to mentally defend itself, tough mages however, are far more aware of the excistance of mind battles, and thus far more prepared to face against those capable of it; and can defend themself with their own mind.
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Postby JW » March 11th, 2006, 10:50 pm

Neoriceisgood wrote:Wouldn't it work the other way around? Psychic attacks attack the mind directly, a weak (unintelligent) mind could barely defend itself against this as it''s easily tricked by illusion, and would fail to understand how to mentally defend itself, tough mages however, are far more aware of the excistance of mind battles, and thus far more prepared to face against those capable of it; and can defend themself with their own mind.


That's an argument I hadn't considered before. I was thinking the opposite because an unintelligent unit isn't going to be effected greatly if you attack its intelligence. A Mage, however, would be greatly disrupted if his thoughts were tampered with. I figured Undead would be immune since they have no intelligence or thoughts whatsoever.
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Postby Flametrooper » March 11th, 2006, 11:01 pm

Read Eragon and Eldest by Christopher Paolini for examples of mental attacks.
IMO, these are good ideas, so I will add one of my own. Nature Damage. Elvish shamans/druids/shydes and etcetera would have this attack, as would Woses, and other stuff(not sure what). It implies attacking one with the raw forces of nature, as the ancient Celtic Druids were said in legends to do.
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Postby Jester » March 12th, 2006, 12:08 pm

JW wrote:
Jester wrote:I haven't read your entire thread yet, but I really like the 'Tear' idea.
If the Werewolves are added to this Era the Rabid Wolf could really use this type.

I'm leaning against adding this as a damage type that is listed, though it could still be used. All units that don't have the type defined in their move_types would have 0% resistance to it, which is what I imagine nearly all units would have anyway...although perhaps not...

Tell you what, if you have several units that plan on using this type in your Werewolf faction I'll probably add it to accomodate. It was intellectually appealing to add anyway for the simple fact that it is a damage type that is currently indescribable with Blade / Pierce / Impact. If your units will use the damage type then there is a practical appeal to it as well. :)


Now, for another thought I had which I am just tossing out as an idea:
Fire / Water / Earth / Air
Would this be compelling? I'm inclined to go with the Hot / Cold duality and the Lunar / Solar duality more than the elementals, because really, how many units would do Air damage? Any thoughts though?


Well, I was thinking that if you would implent it I'd give it to (at least) three of the Werewolves. Namely the Rabid Wolf, the Pack Leader and the Garou. Maybe also the Dire Wolf.

Rabid Wolf and Dire Wolf just for the fact that they are ferocious beasts. The Pack Leader and Garou are the leaders of the faction, and they are like the most bad-ass individuals, so I can imagine them tearing apart there foes.


About the types of magic, I agree with you JW. I think you should go with the hot/cold and lunar/sol. It's a fresh look on magic, not the cliché four elemental system.
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Postby JW » March 14th, 2006, 2:27 pm

Jester wrote:Well, I was thinking that if you would implent it I'd give it to (at least) three of the Werewolves. Namely the Rabid Wolf, the Pack Leader and the Garou. Maybe also the Dire Wolf.

I've been thinking about it more, Jester, and it seems to me that Tear is really a lot like Impact (Crush) (and a little bit like Blade (Slash)). I was imagining how the damage type would work (for resistancies) and it wasn't making a lot of sense. I tried to imagine what resistances humans would have to being torn apart - probably none. What about Skeletons? How would you tear a skeleton? I figured it would probably mean snapping his bones, which he would be prone to - negative resistancies. Units with good armor would have good resistancies to it. But wait, that's just like Impact damage now. I couldn't think of one instance where Tear would be different than Impact damage in it's resistancy numbers, except for paper. Not many units are made of paper though. :|

Anyway, I think I'm going to drop the Tear idea, which you can replace with Impact. If one of your units had something like:
Tear: (12-2 short, Tear)
an appropriate change would proabably be like this:
Tear: (24-1 short, Impact)
Because the Tear would be a one-time thing (you can't really tear a guys arm off twice) with massive massive damage. Otherwise you could have something like:
Rip: (12-2 short, Slash)
because of the nature of how the damage is dealt (rip like paper, opening holes in the victim).

Sorry if that throws you rfaction off a little, but I think you can still get the concepts across using one or the other damage type.

Current setup of damage types for the era:
Blade -> Slash
Pierce
Impact -> Crush
Fire -> Hot
Cold
Holy -> Solar
Lunar = new type
Mental = new type
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Postby JW » March 15th, 2006, 4:34 pm

Question:

Hot/Cold or Fire/Ice?
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Re: Damage types for the Era of Myths

Postby Sapient » March 15th, 2006, 5:53 pm

I think it would be great to have a common template for developing factions where many damage types are represented. But, if you want this to be widely accepted, you need to include the other types that have been sought (such as the spear/arrow distinction). Most of the names are good, but a few are still undesirable.

My opinions:

:arrow: :arrow: Blade becomes Slash (sword, claw) AND Stab (dagger, teeth)
:arrow: :arrow: Pierce becomes Impale (spear) AND Puncture (arrow)
:arrow: Fire or Flame sounds good, but Hot sounds like a mild scalding from touching a hot pan on the oven
:arrow: Crush is too specific. The only difference between Crush and Impact is that Crush is a large Impact. Some Impact attacks are very small. Keep Impact, it sounds fine.
:arrow: No opinion on Solar vs. Holy
:arrow: Shadow or Void are needed. Lunar sounds mediocre.
:?: Acid could be useful. Maybe some dwarves or goblins would throw it. Chemical sounds too general.
:?: Mental could be useful.
:arrow: Why'd you drop Electric? I'd prefer it be called Lightning, though
:idea: Sonic damage is another possiblity, but probably of limited use

Mages are incredibly good at strategic battles of the mind, but resisting psionics could be like an art known only to a select few (who guard the knowledge zealously). It's more fun that way. 8)
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Re: Damage types for the Era of Myths

Postby JW » March 15th, 2006, 6:37 pm

Thank you for your input Sapient. I agree with some of what you say. One thing I must point out, however, is that this damage setup is solely for the use of this era. I don't intend to convince the devs to change and rebalance Default or anything. And though I'm sure you already knew that I felt the need to restate it. ;)

Addressing your specific comments:
Sapient wrote: :arrow: Blade becomes Slash (sword) AND Stab (dagger, teeth)
:arrow: Pierce becomes Impale (spear) AND Puncture (arrow)

This suggests 4 damage types to replace the 2 current ones. I don't have a problem with expansion in theory, but I'm not sure that the distinction between the types is really there to justify the splits. I would ideally like to resolve these issues with Hardness, but since Hardness is not a feature of Wesnoth I must compromise in this issue. My compromise is this:
Slash: any damage that is concentrated a 2d line like a blade.
Pierce: any damage that is concentrated on a 1d point like an arrow or spear.
Crush: any damage that is distributed on a 3d plane of any shape like a clubhead or fist. I note that Impact does sound more appealing of a name than Crush now that I type out this description.
Sapient wrote: :arrow: Fire or Flame sounds good, but Hot sounds like a mild scalding from touching a hot pan on the oven
:arrow: Crush is too specific. The only difference between Crush and Impact is that Crush is a large Impact. Some Impact attacks are very small. Keep Impact, it sounds fine.
:arrow: No opinion on Solar vs. Holy
:arrow: Shadow or Void are needed. Lunar sounds mediocre.

I am strongly opposed to the concept of Holy/Unholy as they are very limiting. The concept of the Positive/Negative dichotomy I wanted to keep however as it can apply to both physics (charges) and morals. I didn't want to be cliche and use the terms Positive and Negative however, and Light for Light/Shadow just sounds silly to me. When I came across the concept of Solar/Lunar it made sense to me as BfW is already dependant on the time of day (the sun and the moon) for it's distinction between Lawful/Chaotic. It also seemed unique to me in that I cannot remember any game which used such terminology to describe damage types. I think it is original and I intend to keep it unless I am presented with a very persuasive counter-argument.
Sapient wrote::arrow: Acid could be useful in the future. Chemical sounds too general.
:arrow: Mental could be very useful.

Acid damage does have potential to become a damage type - IF there are enough units to justify it's existence. Not only units that use the type, but also resistancies that differ from 0 to justify it's definition in the units.cfg. The reason I hesitate to add it to this era is because:
:arrow: No units currently in the era would use the damage type
:arrow: No units currently in the era would resist the damage type that I can imagine. Undead maybe...
To explain, any damage type that is not defined in the units.cfg movetype automatically has 0% resistance on the units with that movetype. Since all units would have 0% resistance to the damage type anyway, I find no need to add the damage type, even if 1 or 2 units would use it in their attacks.

Sorry if I seem disagreeable. :shock: Your post has made me think and express my ideas better so I appreciate your input. Now for what I agree wit hyou on :wink: :
Sapient wrote:Mages are incredibly good at what they do, but resisting psionics could be like an art known only to a select few who guard the knowledge zealously. It's more fun that way. 8)

Yes, this is exactly what I had in mind. :wink:

Also, Crush will probably be Impact in the final version. I also don't like the name Hot. Perhaps Burn? This may also allow Acid damage to fall under its category as most acids do exactly that: burn.

I am still fighting to come up with a good Fire/Cold duo that sounds good together but also makes sense for all of their applications. Burn/Freeze?-Chill? This is the part I need the most input on right now and preferably with strong reasons to back them up.

Ah, I missed a point or two:
Sapient wrote::arrow: Why'd you drop Electric? I'd prefer it be called Lightning, though
:idea: Sonic damage is another possiblity, but probably of limited use

I dropped electric because the unit support was not there (as only the Werewolves, Shifters, and modified Undead are currently in this era). Also, I am unsure how I feel about the damage type and if it can be channeled through Lunar/Solar or not. If you have any input please share it.
Sonic is also an intereting possibility, though I imagine it can be filtered through Psychic damage. I can easily make Bat units more vulnerable to this when I modify the Undead if a unit that uses sound to attack appears.

I was wondering, do you know of any factions that could be added to this era that would use any of the new damage types? If so, please show them to me so we can examine the possibilities together, thanks.
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Re: Damage types for the Era of Myths

Postby Sapient » March 15th, 2006, 7:24 pm

JW wrote:Thank you for your input Sapient. I agree with some of what you say. One thing I must point out, however, is that this damage setup is solely for the use of this era. I don't intend to convince the devs to change and rebalance Default or anything. And though I'm sure you already knew that I felt the need to restate it. ;)


Oh well, maybe someday db0 will revive his thread on unofficial Default variation.

JW wrote:I didn't want to be cliche and use the terms Positive and Negative however, and Light for Light/Shadow just sounds silly to me. When I came across the concept of Solar/Lunar it made sense to me as BfW is already dependant on the time of day (the sun and the moon) for it's distinction between Lawful/Chaotic. It also seemed unique to me in that I cannot remember any game which used such terminology to describe damage types. I think it is original and I intend to keep it unless I am presented with a very persuasive counter-argument.


Then why not Solar/Shadow? Lunar damage sounds so non-threatening. The moon is a source of light, you know.
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Postby Jester » March 15th, 2006, 10:38 pm

I actually like Lunar. Though the moon does give light it is often (always) associated with the night. And night is the time of day when al the spooky things come out.
Besides, if I read JW post correctly, he said that he wanted a Positive/Negative duo not only in the sense of good vs. evil but also in terms of morals and such. I think that the sun and the moon are good representatives for that.

O, and about the Tear damage, it's a shame that it doesn't get added, but it's not the end of the world.
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Postby Flametrooper » March 20th, 2006, 5:00 am

"Dark" probably sounds abit cliche, but it works, especially for evil magic. Or "Nightly," or something like that. I'm sorry if those opinions sound stupid, but I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of the moon being evil.
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Postby Sapient » March 20th, 2006, 5:04 am

Dark, yeah there's a fine alternative. Nightly sounds too much like Knightly tho! :lol:
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Postby Cuyo Quiz » March 20th, 2006, 2:55 pm

Stygian.
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