Altered era/ruleset

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lea
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by lea » November 12th, 2018, 1:41 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 9:46 pm
True but I think we should aim to make simple and easy to understand.
"desperate stand" rule as it is now is simplest I could come up with without making it either useless or overpowered, unless I missed something - which may be the case )
I do not like the idea of hiding details and removing any of them seems likely to make this rule unbalanced
The_Gnat wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 9:46 pm
You make a valid point, though it would be cool to have units show up. ;)
indeed, but "cool" tends to be expensive )
The_Gnat wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 9:46 pm
Ideally instead of having a 'cooldown' bar it could just be based upon criteria that no longer will work if you have activated the desperate stand recently. For example if desperate stand can only be triggered when you have less than 5 units and less than X gold, then after you trigger desperate stand it will no longer be able to be triggered again.
it can be triggered if majority of units hired for "desperate stand" money are wiped during the next turn - which is common in my games and the sole reason why "cooldown" part was added to "desperation index" formula
The_Gnat wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 9:46 pm
The only problem I foresee is that if the leader advances then you can't use desperate stand :P
seems like negligibly rare problem to me because leaders need plenty of exp to advance (always over 150, usually over 200) and there is still an option of desperate stand being triggered automatically regardless of leader's exp
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by The_Gnat » November 13th, 2018, 5:27 am

lea wrote:
November 12th, 2018, 1:41 pm
"desperate stand" rule as it is now is simplest I could come up with without making it either useless or overpowered, unless I missed something - which may be the case )
I do not like the idea of hiding details and removing any of them seems likely to make this rule unbalanced
That is true. But what I meant previously is that we can continue with our formula for desperate stand: gain X gold proportional to the scale of the war, (i.e map size) and the current situation of your army. And instead of having a criteria for when they can trigger desperate and when they can't we can just point out to them (in the message when they right click) that it probably isn't worthwhile to trigger desperate stand yet.
seems like negligibly rare problem to me because leaders need plenty of exp to advance (always over 150, usually over 200) and there is still an option of desperate stand being triggered automatically regardless of leader's exp
When we add the right-click menu, in what circumstances would the desperate stand be triggered automatically?

It is nice that we are making some progress! I look forward to testing out the new desperate stand! :D

lea
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by lea » November 14th, 2018, 11:49 am

The_Gnat wrote:
November 13th, 2018, 5:27 am
And instead of having a criteria for when they can trigger desperate and when they can't we can just point out to them (in the message when they right click) that it probably isn't worthwhile to trigger desperate stand yet.
what effects you think desperate stand should have when it is manually triggered by well-off players?
The_Gnat wrote:
November 13th, 2018, 5:27 am
When we add the right-click menu, in what circumstances would the desperate stand be triggered automatically?
same as now, manual option is for those who want to pay their exp to trigger it earlier (when they are not-so-desperate yet)
The_Gnat wrote:
November 13th, 2018, 5:27 am
I look forward to testing out the new desperate stand! :D
it is added to my list of things to do, but no ETA ;)
(there are a few things I may want to do before this one)
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by The_Gnat » November 15th, 2018, 12:06 am

lea wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 11:49 am
what effects you think desperate stand should have when it is manually triggered by well-off players?
I would say use the same criteria currently and then subtract however many units they still have on the map. For example if map-size would normally generate 10 units for desperate stand and they have 5 then give them 5 units. Gold should probably also be counted so it might overall look like this:

- Total desperate stand units from map size (in gold)
- Subtract the number of units currently you have (in gold)
- Subtract the amount of gold you already have

I don't know what this exactly would look like but ideally it should generate nothing if you are well off. Since activating desperate stand takes experience you then spend your leaders XP and don't gain anything. (What do you think?)

same as now, manual option is for those who want to pay their exp to trigger it earlier (when they are not-so-desperate yet)
I would prefer that for me desperate stand only triggers when I right-click. That would allow me to strategize around when I activate it. Instead of automatically activating you could automatically bring up a message suggesting them to activate. (For example: "Your army is in ruins. Would you like to make a call to your troops to take up a desperate stand?") If they choose not to that is fine. Perhaps there leader is not near his castle so they don't want to get the gold yet?
(there are a few things I may want to do before this one)
Totally understandable :) No pressure at all.

lea
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by lea » November 15th, 2018, 4:12 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 12:06 am
Since activating desperate stand takes experience you then spend your leaders XP and don't gain anything. (What do you think?)
which is both harmful and has no useful outcome at all. in the past you questioned feasibility of dismissing units which has minor upsides (reduction of upkeep expenses, teleporting of dismissed unit to leader over arbitrarily long distance through resurrection) and now offering an option that has none... I am confused )
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 12:06 am
I would prefer that for me desperate stand only triggers when I right-click.
which would be a "human player only" rule - I'd rather not have such thing unless necessary. besides "desperate stand" is intended to be strategized around only by prevailing player (discourage small force raids on enemy leaders), not desperate one
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 12:06 am
Perhaps there leader is not near his castle so they don't want to get the gold yet?
gold does not have upkeep cost - what's the advantage in waiting before getting it?
author of: Altered Era/Ruleset (on add-ons servers for BfW 1.14, 1.12 and 1.10 )

lea
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by lea » November 15th, 2018, 6:37 pm

version 0.5.5 is published for BfW 1.10.7, 1.12.6 and 1.14.x

changes:

- indicator of terrain under the cursor in GUI now shows terrain types first (without parentheses) and then terrain name in parentheses, also it is preceded with "(heals)" for healing locations terrains and "(recruit)" for windmills (which can be used by any side to recruit units at extra expense)
- fixed description of charging attack special (used to state that it works on defense while it actually works on offense)
- fixed a few typos and mistakes in descriptions of custom rules
- small changes in fey race/faction:
changed resistances of fey kensai to match plate armor that seems to be present on its portrait, erased dagger from his off-hand
increased damage of call hail attack of fey concord to 17
removed smudges on portrait for fey concord and fey warden
- small changes in valons race/faction:
added idle aimation from mainline swordsman to valon trooper
recolored valon steward's leggings into plate armor tones
author of: Altered Era/Ruleset (on add-ons servers for BfW 1.14, 1.12 and 1.10 )

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The_Gnat
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by The_Gnat » November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm

lea wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 4:12 pm
which is both harmful and has no useful outcome at all.
Isn't that the point? When the player isn't desperate we should not give them any useful outcome. ^_^

If we scale it properly benefits would gradually grow from HARMFUL -> NOTHING -> MINOR -> NORMAL -> GOOD depending on how well the player is doing. :)

I understand why you are confused. It probably seems like I am advocating something (allowing you to trigger desperate whenever you want) that makes no sense at all. But in fact I am not. I trying to ensure that this rule doesn't take over the game by allowing everyone to play it at all times.

If you can click it as many times as you have XP for your leader then people could and would potentially use it every few rounds unless it is significantly bad enough for well-off players.

However, it also should be good enough that if you are doing badly and you need more units (but aren't totally desperate yet) you can strategically decide that calling up units now may be more advantageous and useful. (Perhaps you have over-extended you leader and need reinforcements, maybe you want to attack at a certain TOD, etc.) There are numerous strategic advantages in being able to pick your time of desperate stand. And most importantly in my mind is the removal of the events which happen in the background and control the game's outcome. IMO having desperate stand as a player controlled aspect is an important part of removing both the confusion around it, making it more strategic, and making it seem less arbitrary and more like a game-play aspect.
lea wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 4:12 pm
in the past you questioned feasibility of dismissing units which has minor upsides (reduction of upkeep expenses, teleporting of dismissed unit to leader over arbitrarily long distance through resurrection) and now offering an option that has none... I am confused )
In particular relation to dismissing units I still hold by the opinion that the strategic advantages it offered were outweighed by the illogical behavior it provoked.

But I thought that over the last 20 posts we have sent I have made clear what positive outcomes I believe allowing you to have a right-click menu would offer. :whistle:
which would be a "human player only" rule - I'd rather not have such thing unless necessary. besides "desperate stand" is intended to be strategized around only by prevailing player (discourage small force raids on enemy leaders), not desperate one
No not a human only rule but a simple if statement. If AI then trigger desperate stand. If human then trigger message that asks if they want to trigger desperate stand.

What do you think the advantages (besides simplicity of coding ;) ) are for having desperate stand triggered automatically? Do you think it would be not used properly otherwise? Is it that you believe it would be exploited too easily if not automatically triggered? :)
gold does not have upkeep cost - what's the advantage in waiting before getting it?
Good point :lol: But perhaps the player wants to wait until they get even more desperate ;)

lea
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by lea » November 16th, 2018, 9:56 am

The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
Isn't that the point? When the player isn't desperate we should not give them any useful outcome. ^_^
why giving the player an option to trigger it in such case? as opposed to telling how much more "desperate" they should become to be able to get the bonus for "desperation" (let me repeat that "not allowing to trigger it unless player is desperate enough" is different from "hide respective right-click menu entry unless player is desperate enough")
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
If we scale it properly benefits would gradually grow from HARMFUL -> NOTHING -> MINOR -> NORMAL -> GOOD depending on how well the player is doing. :)
scaling the outcome based on player's well-being (aka "desperation index") is additional complication for already complicated rule... and what's the point with harmful outcome?
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
I trying to ensure that this rule doesn't take over the game by allowing everyone to play it at all times.
do you think it does in its current shape? in what cases?
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
If you can click it as many times as you have XP for your leader then people could and would potentially use it every few rounds unless it is significantly bad enough for well-off players.
for that they'll have to get exp for leader every few rounds = risk their leader being killed. and enough exp to pay for repeated triggering as well - or do you expect to be able to trigger 200 gold bonus for much less than 200 exp lost by leader?
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
you can strategically decide that calling up units now may be more advantageous and useful.
do you still think of desperation bonus as extra units showing up near leader instead of gold bonus as it is now?
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
most importantly in my mind is the removal of the events which happen in the background and control the game's outcome.
what's wrong with events? especially considering how healing works in BfW
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
In particular relation to dismissing units I still hold by the opinion that the strategic advantages it offered were outweighed by the illogical behavior it provoked.
you think that having an option with numerous safeguards from accidental triggering is provoking? and what's illogical in attempts to reduce one's expenses? or "selling" relatively useless unit to be able to recruit more useful one earlier?
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
What do you think the advantages (besides simplicity of coding ;) ) are for having desperate stand triggered automatically? Do you think it would be not used properly otherwise?
as mentioned in earlier responses, "I want to save dumb human players as well" (c)
you already suggested that players seldom use right-click menu options by asking how "desperation index" works ;) what makes you believe that another right-click menu option will receive more attention?
The_Gnat wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 8:07 pm
Good point :lol: But perhaps the player wants to wait until they get even more desperate ;)
what's the point in doing so?
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by The_Gnat » November 17th, 2018, 12:39 am

lea wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 9:56 am
what's the point in doing so?
I agree with everything you have just said. :) Unfortunately your very valid points undermine the right-click menu's value to such a point that I believe I need to rethink the original proposition... ;)

One question I do have though is where do you think it is best to incorporate the player's current situation? Currently the 'desperate enough' criteria uses the player's current status to decide if they can activate desperate stand. Alternatively the player's current status could be factored into the desperate stand bonus. Either way we have the player's status incorporated somewhere, so do you see any particular benefit of having it in one place or the other? (besides the time it takes to code)
lea wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 9:56 am
The_Gnat wrote: ↑Yesterday, 7:07 am
I trying to ensure that this rule doesn't take over the game by allowing everyone to play it at all times.
do you think it does in its current shape? in what cases?
No, I think the problems currently with desperate stand do not include taking over the game. :) I just meant that if we add the right-click menu it might be worth creating a larger role for the rule by allowing it to be used more often, and was saying that if we do that we don't want to make it OP. However, you have already clearly illustrated the illogic in both of those propositions.

lea wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 9:56 am
do you still think of desperation bonus as extra units showing up near leader instead of gold bonus as it is now?
I was thinking of it as gold when I wrote my previous post. I agree with you that gold is better strategically.
lea wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 9:56 am
you already suggested that players seldom use right-click menu options by asking how "desperation index" works what makes you believe that another right-click menu option will receive more attention?
:lol: That was because I took such a long break from wesnoth when real-life got in the way, and I had not played the add-on for a long time.

lea
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by lea » November 18th, 2018, 2:42 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 12:39 am
Unfortunately your very valid points undermine the right-click menu's value to such a point that I believe I need to rethink the original proposition... ;)
one value I still see as fairly unambiguous is as a place to show current value of "desperation index" to player - unless better place will be found for it )
The_Gnat wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 12:39 am
Either way we have the player's status incorporated somewhere, so do you see any particular benefit of having it in one place or the other? (besides the time it takes to code)
I chose inclusion of current state into "desperation index" formula to make it the only "variable" in desperate stand rule since this way result of triggering it is constant (for a given map/game)
The_Gnat wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 12:39 am
I was thinking of it as gold when I wrote my previous post. I agree with you that gold is better strategically.
in this case I do not see any advantage in delaying "desperate stand" as nothing forces the player to spend the bonus during same turn it was received... maybe I miss something?
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Re: Altered era/ruleset

Post by The_Gnat » November 20th, 2018, 10:15 pm

lea wrote:
November 18th, 2018, 2:42 pm
one value I still see as fairly unambiguous is as a place to show current value of "desperation index" to player - unless better place will be found for it )
Yes that is true :)
in this case I do not see any advantage in delaying "desperate stand" as nothing forces the player to spend the bonus during same turn it was received... maybe I miss something?
I agree :)
I chose inclusion of current state into "desperation index" formula to make it the only "variable" in desperate stand rule since this way result of triggering it is constant (for a given map/game)
I personally would prefer that the variable is included in the bonus not the formula but I guess it doesn't add much. The strategic possibilities for triggering desperate stand whenever you want are less than the confusion it could add.

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