Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

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Sagez
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Sagez » August 15th, 2018, 5:08 pm

Thanks for clarification. Maybe that's like how it is with various kind of this day spetsnaz - not all of them are all that tough.

Anyway, did you like this addon?
Eastern Europe at War Co-Creator viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34418
"Neptune has finally wed Venus - even Gods can't screw around forever." L-F Céline

Can-ned_Food
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Can-ned_Food » August 15th, 2018, 7:15 pm

Of course, most Marines were tougher, if you will, than the average sailor. That's the sort of person attracted to that sort of thing. For me, being “tough” was standing watch over equipment with too little sleep while memorizing casualty procedures and all that.

Ah, but yes. Back on topic.
I'm not against proper fantasy, as some of the others here seem to be. However, I do agree that the mainline Wesnoth stuff, especially the campaigns, are hardly what I would consider a ‘rich’ fantasy world.
Therefore, I am always looking for alternatives which will run in the engine.

I must admit that I haven't played EEAW yet. Conceptually, I like it. It isn't easy to strive for both historicity and fun gameplay, with an honest respect for the historical accuracy, so I commend any decent effort to do so.

Sometimes, it is easy to think of distant historical events as simply another fantasy story. We often need to stop and think on how those were actual people, experiencing the world just as you are right now.

Yes, I am rambling to distract from my inability to give any useful comments on the era. Maybe, when I get 1.15+ built, compiled, and installed, I will see some of you folks on the Polish server.

:!: One more thing: I was going through this thread so as to collect the various maps that were uploaded here. I've gotten 22 of them. I wish to upload them in a separate map-pack to complement the era; separate so as to allow users to update it while not re-downloaded the whole era itself.
Are there any other maps scattered across the Polish forum which you have together somewhere? I am part Polish, but I never learned much of the language, excepting words here and there which I notice.
So, when ever you can spare the time, if you post links to them here I will work at including them in the map-pack.

Sagez
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Sagez » August 18th, 2018, 6:01 pm

There are no maps as far as I know. I remember one guy that made several maps (like europe map) and we made them ''official'', but that was years ago and forums are dead, he isn't around anymore.

It's beyond my reasoning why you still haven't tried this era, but don't take it as offence. I'm surprised. Maybe you don't like to play against AI or for whatever reason you're waiting for the next build, that's ok. Let me just say that probably 70% of my games were against AI and they still were fun. We also had some EEaW tournaments in the past, that was also good. Again, don't take this like I'm trying to offend you, but the player base is vanishing and it will only get harder to find someone to play with. You will make maps, ok, I'm all for that, but who will play on your maps?

This is a general problem. Eras/mods/usermade content get so little attention - quality content! - that is it hardly worthwhile to do anything. If players play, creators gonna create. It's that easy. See, we've added Prussians not too long ago - we though that will be something as the players in the past were very often asking us if Prussians will be added. And what? Nothing. People like to discuss unit's names or other trivia stuff instead of sharing their experiences with our work.

I don't blame anyone. I most recently play Call of Chernobyl, Fallout 2 with Killap's RP and Economy and Combat Rebalance mod, HoMM V with 5.5 mod. Those are excellent mods with big and living communities that provide continuing feedback.
Eastern Europe at War Co-Creator viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34418
"Neptune has finally wed Venus - even Gods can't screw around forever." L-F Céline

Can-ned_Food
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Can-ned_Food » August 18th, 2018, 9:01 pm

Oh! I understood that the AI was unable to comprehend the cannons and that it always rushed, making games against it too easy.

Why does Wesnoth have more mod makers than mod players? Most of the players stick with a few, familiar eras and maps; many of them play campaigns only. Why is that?
discourse
Well, I have a few hunches. The Wesnoth engine is not very flashy. It is a slower, more considerable gameplay than many users can enjoy — and, that is not quite a bad thing. For example, when I read through the lists of StarCraft and Warcraft maps and mods, I feel like my brain is being raped. Crud of the human race … :-(

That doesn't mean that you needn't add polish to your sprites or visual effects.
However, I do think that it makes for the following:
  1. People care more about gameplay and stats than about appearance or lore. Let me just make up an era, use borrowed sprites, and not give any [unit_type] description=.
  2. This era looks like a decent concept, but it has no ‘pizzaz’. There appears to be nothing which will reward me bothering to relearn tactics and developing strategies for how to play with it.
There is one thing I would use as an example: Ageless Era. Of course, I do not use it now, because Wesnoth has trouble when it loads too many text strings — and Ageless has lots of those; i can either use almost everything but Ageless, or Ageless and i need to pick–and–choose what else i want.
However, when I did play it, I had a lot of fun seeing all the different factions. Many of them were very specialized, though. Now that I don't have it loaded, I usually stick with the Battle For Wesnoth default era — when i have the patience to play with the AI or anyone else, that is. Why? Because most of the other eras which I have are either almost unplayable or too specialized for certain map themes.
That doesn't mean that I always use the BFW era, though. Most of my own maps have themes which allow them to work with non-default-esque factions. The trouble there is knowing exactly which faction — and thus, which era — is fun for a map.

As for those users who don't do multiplayer: well, I think that is a consequence of most campaigns only requiring one player — it is much easier to try something new if you don't need to get other players to come along for the ride.
There are also those who think that multiplayer mode doesn't work well enough, and that it never will. That's another thing, but I'll not follow through on that tangent.
In brief summary: familiarity. Wesnoth's design favors the more dedicated and pseudo loyal players. When you think of it like that, it should be no surprise that those such players aren't always embracing and trying something wholely new.

You wish to attract a new bunch of players who want to favor EEAW over the other stuff?
  • Make a new [core]. Give Wesnoth a “make-over”, with new music tracks and background scenes for the antemenu and the UI scheme. It's what we used to call, with proprietary engines, a “total conversion”.
  • Go multimedia. With this one era I am helping to develop — well, let's say that the era creator dreams of an anime-styled serial drama featuring characters from the various factions. That's … probably not the sort of thing you want to do.

Plentyn
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Plentyn » September 14th, 2018, 1:29 pm

So, given that this has been one of my favourite mods for quite a while I want to give you a big "thank you".

I have some gripes, of course ;) :
  • Having a starting position for the Prussians would be great.
  • The documentation could need an update: some of the units of the Ukrainians are incorrect at least. Documenting the AMLAness of the Spearmans (are there others?) could be relevant, too.
  • Some of the leaders (I remember the Tartars and Ukrainians specifically) get killed quite quickly if played by the AI. AFAICS in case of the Ukrainians this might be an effect of the position of the Keep in Kiev
  • I really like your ships, and the corresponding
    special effects. Having some more sea-focused scenarios might be great.
    Especially if they are based on realistic geographies and/or backgrounds.
All in all: Keep up the good work!

cu

YPL

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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Temuchin Khan » September 14th, 2018, 6:23 pm

Plentyn wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 1:29 pm
[*] Some of the leaders (I remember the Tartars and Ukrainians specifically) get killed quite quickly if played by the AI. AFAICS in case of the Ukrainians this might be an effect of the position of the Keep in Kiev
This is definitely true. In fact, in my experience, whenever I play against the AI it usually comes down to a showdown between Austria and Russia.

Can-ned_Food
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Can-ned_Food » September 15th, 2018, 6:26 pm

A better default map, then? Larger, if necessary, to include all the terrain which would enable those factions stuck in the middle to better defend against attackers.

It doesn't necessarily need to be larger, though. Here's one quick fix which I am planning on using for some of my eras, as yet unpublished:
  1. roads, paths, and other travelways are given a new terrain type other than flat turf
  2. that new road terrain type requires 1 movepoint for most, if not all troops' [movetype];
  3. the movepoints required for every other terrain type in each [movetype] are doubled and then adjusted;
  4. the [unit_type]movement= for each are similarly increased — probably don't want to use an initial factor of 2x, but some formula like (movepoints)*1.5±A or something.
    Tweaking the movepoints for each [unit_type] should not be a trivial or formulaic task, but with special attention to the skill with mobility of its historical prototype.

Plentyn
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Plentyn » September 15th, 2018, 7:41 pm

Temuchin Khan wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 6:23 pm
Plentyn wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 1:29 pm
[*] Some of the leaders (I remember the Tartars and Ukrainians specifically) get killed quite quickly if played by the AI. AFAICS in case of the Ukrainians this might be an effect of the position of the Keep in Kiev
This is definitely true. In fact, in my experience, whenever I play against the AI it usually comes down to a showdown between Austria and Russia.
I would not subscribe to this - my experience suggests Russia/Turkey/Austria/Sweden - approxymately in this order.

Plentyn
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Joined: June 1st, 2014, 2:55 pm

Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Plentyn » September 15th, 2018, 7:51 pm

Can-ned_Food wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 6:26 pm
A better default map, then? Larger, if necessary, to include all the terrain which would enable those factions stuck in the middle to better defend against attackers.
Does this refer to me? If yes - The problem is not so much size, but some map details: the keep of Kiev is directly at a ford. The AI tends to leave its leader there, which makes it vulnerable to attacks by whoever is on the other side of the river. The keep of the Tartars is at the black sea, where it is vulnerable to Turkish fire-ships.

Both cases can be handled by a human (just do not leave your leader at this position at end of turn), but the AI does not seem to be paranoid enough about its leader.

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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Temuchin Khan » September 15th, 2018, 9:01 pm

Plentyn wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 7:41 pm
Temuchin Khan wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 6:23 pm
Plentyn wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 1:29 pm
[*] Some of the leaders (I remember the Tartars and Ukrainians specifically) get killed quite quickly if played by the AI. AFAICS in case of the Ukrainians this might be an effect of the position of the Keep in Kiev
This is definitely true. In fact, in my experience, whenever I play against the AI it usually comes down to a showdown between Austria and Russia.
I would not subscribe to this - my experience suggests Russia/Turkey/Austria/Sweden - approxymately in this order.
Well, I usually play Austria, so that probably skews my results a little.

Can-ned_Food
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Re: Eastern Europe at War (EEaW) - 2.1 for 1.14!

Post by Can-ned_Food » September 17th, 2018, 1:20 am

Plentyn wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 7:51 pm
Can-ned_Food wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 6:26 pm
A better default map, then? Larger, if necessary, to include all the terrain which would enable those factions stuck in the middle to better defend against attackers.
Does this refer to me? If yes - The problem is not so much size, but some map details: (…)
I agree. However, if it was necessary to keep historical accuracy, then you could need to increase the size of the map to add those details — rather than simply inserting mountains or swamps where-ever you please.

Increasing the size of the map would also increase the distances necessary to travel, and therefore making the vulnerable Keeps less vulnerable … however, the preferrable method to deal with that problem would be to decrease movepoints so that the map doesn't become too large to manage.

Then you have my suggestion that the movement costs for the various terrain types be doubled, allowing only roads and keeps — and deep water for seagoing vessels — to have a cost of 1.
Furthermore, fortifications should have a movement cost of 2, same as flat, open turf, so as to represent the delays due to entry and exit.

UPDATE:
I collected all the maps published in this topic together. They are available in the add–on named “Eastern Europe” on the 1-14 add–ons server. I haven't written and [multiplayer] data yet, but at least all the maps will be together for those who don't have them.

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