Request: New unpassable terrain

[Jetrel]

The use of the Cave Wall as a middle-of-a-map impassable terrain is actually not that silly. It makes the whole map one is playing in to look as part of an underground world, were day and night come after each other in a cicle which depends not of a sun, but of the brilliance of the "cave sky" or something mystical like that, if you can imagine with me. And higher than mountains, Cave Walls represent exactly those "extremelly high mountains" which reach the very end of the world, in terms of altitude.

another example of trying to justify a bizarre and unnecessary fantasy world when we can just use something real

Let me elaborate further...
In Mars, THERE IS extremelly high mountains, as tall as 24 Kilometers (or something near that), which is about 14 Miles (roughly), high mountains like those could still be passable by a flying creature, but at a very low speed. Also, in that planet there is ocassional winds as fast as those of Earth's hurricanes, now THAT is truly impassable for any flying creature with a little (really, little) sense of physics (isn't it?).

Speaking of a "little sense of physics"...

Did you know that it's not possible to fly to the top of Mount Everest (to say nothing of Olympus Mons, on Mars)? Flight requires lift, lift requires air, and the air at that height is too thin (and also extremely cold).

It is such that man can only go there by first dressing himself in the best insulation we have available, and second, by carrying oxygen with him, not unlike a scuba diver.

Helicopters can reach no more than, I think, halfway up, and there are no creatures (birds, or otherwise), which can go higher than the helicopters.


All we need for visual impassability is a 60° slope - something that looks like you can't hike up it, but must painstakingly scale it. If it looks like the player would take days to traverse it, players will easily assume, as they have in dozens of other games, that it is simply too time-consuming to scale during game-time.

[hands]

I'm having a hard time picturing a parchment edge in a way that looks attractive.

Think M.C. Escher...
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/ital-bmp/LW152.jpg
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/switz-bmp/LW300.jpg
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/back-bmp/LW323.jpg
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/back-bmp/LW355.jpg
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/back-bmp/LW395.jpg

His work was not geared toward Wesnoth, but he did some of the most recognised work on transitions. Transitional borders could be done in many different ways, not just to parchment.

[Eleazar]

I'm a big fan of Escher,
but these examples don't really seem to address the issue at hand.

[hands]

The second and fourth images are the closest to what I thought of from the previous posts. And, like I said, Escher's work wasn't really geared toward Wesnoth. I posted the links more for visual cues than final examples because I don't have a good screenshot that is more appropriate.

[yobbo]

Really tall spiky mountains --- with clouds around their tops --- and ice all up their sides... you could make them look pretty impassable. Even flying creatures can't fly up forever...

I think if someone drew these, suggestions involving parchment and void would dry up.

That said, I vote for canyons with starry void at the bottom. WooOoOOoo

[hands]

I have to agree with Yobbo. Eleazar's work with canyons seems like it would fit nicely for at least a few scenarios.

[Extremely high, steep] mountains would also be a boon for scenarios depending on the map.

Whirlpools or something similar would be good for water.

And for the artistically ambitious scenarios, voids or transitions to parchment/void/whatever could be nice for map edges.

[Lindir The Green]

Sorry to be a pain, but...

Did you know that it's not possible to fly to the top of Mount Everest...?

Helicopters can reach no more than, I think, halfway up, and there are no creatures (birds, or otherwise), which can go higher than the helicopters.

http://www.everestnews.com/stories2005/ ... 272005.htm

It is such that man can only go there by first dressing himself in the best insulation we have available, and second, by carrying oxygen with him, not unlike a scuba diver

Many people have climbed everest without oxygen.
I couldn't find a good link for the actual number, but here was the first one:
http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/ ... act/1/1/23
It is difficult, but well trained mountain climbers can do it. I think aproximately 1/8 of the people who climb everest do it without oxygen.

My writing class just finished an everest unit, so now I am a comparitive expert.

[Pentalis]

The use of the Cave Wall as a middle-of-a-map impassable terrain is actually not that silly. It makes the whole map one is playing in to look as part of an underground world, were day and night come after each other in a cicle which depends not of a sun, but of the brilliance of the "cave sky" or something mystical like that, if you can imagine with me. And higher than mountains, Cave Walls represent exactly those "extremelly high mountains" which reach the very end of the world, in terms of altitude.

another example of trying to justify a bizarre and unnecessary fantasy world when we can just use something real

I am not trying to justify it, or that was not what I meant, as I am already against enough to the use of impassable terrain to try to defend any of their representations. I tried to explain what do I imagine and feel like when I see the cave wall terrain applied inside a map.
And please, if you care, elaborate further on what you mean with "Real".

Let me elaborate further...
In Mars, THERE IS extremelly high mountains, as tall as 24 Kilometers (or something near that), which is about 14 Miles (roughly), high mountains like those could still be passable by a flying creature, but at a very low speed. Also, in that planet there is ocassional winds as fast as those of Earth's hurricanes, now THAT is truly impassable for any flying creature with a little (really, little) sense of physics (isn't it?).

Speaking of a "little sense of physics"...

Did you know that it's not possible to fly to the top of Mount Everest (to say nothing of Olympus Mons, on Mars)? Flight requires lift, lift requires air, and the air at that height is too thin (and also extremely cold).

It is such that man can only go there by first dressing himself in the best insulation we have available, and second, by carrying oxygen with him, not unlike a scuba diver.

Helicopters can reach no more than, I think, halfway up, and there are no creatures (birds, or otherwise), which can go higher than the helicopters.

What did you mean with the "little sense of physics" thing?, I think it was an innecesary use of irony/sarcasm. I am not that misinformed (and I am not that stupid either).
And please don't answer to this saying I am paranoid, if you really care, just don't answer this part of the response.

All we need for visual impassability is a 60° slope - something that looks like you can't hike up it, but must painstakingly scale it. If it looks like the player would take days to traverse it, players will easily assume, as they have in dozens of other games, that it is simply too time-consuming to scale during game-time.

I am STRONGLY against impassable terrain for any use else than reducing the map size (to which void and parchment do the best job in my oppinion).
A very tall slope with 60º of inclination can still be passed by, say, a Ghost, why wouldn't it?. Terrain should be impassable in a creature-by-creature basis (like mountains for horseman), if not, you risk to fall into a falacy of terrain, pretty much what currently happens with the Cave Wall. A Chain of Mountains can be easily passed by a Sky Drake (only 1 movement per hexagon), and only 1 hexagon of "very tall slope" can't be passed by it?, even if it uses all of its movements?, there's something wrong there (and what can people say about ghosts?, mh?).

I repeat: I AM STRONGLY AGAINST IMPASSABLE TERRAIN FOR ANY USE ELSE THAN REDUCING MAP SIZE.

[Eleazar]

Many (if not most) of the developers and campaign designers want Wesnoth to have some kind of terrain that's impassable to all units, therefore it's very likely to happen.

Pentalis, "screaming" (i.e. typing with all caps) is not an effective way to change people's minds.

Discussing "what would really happen if..." is only useful as it reveals people's expectations. Wesnoth is not real. In the end we try to make a decision that is KISS and is best for all around gameplay.

[Jetrel]

Sorry to be a pain, but...

Did you know that it's not possible to fly to the top of Mount Everest

http://www.everestnews.com/stories2005/ ... 272005.htm

Birds, however, don't go that high, and drakes resemble eagle flight mechanics purely by rote of size (drake flight pattern is primarily gliding and soaring, not the rapid wing movement that characterizes, say, sparrows). A drake would freeze up there, just as Smaug feared the long lake.

Many people have climbed everest without oxygen.
I Couldn't find a good link for the actual number, but here was the first one:
http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/ ... act/1/1/23

Many, I believe, is a number only in the hundreds or low thousands.

The ascent of Mount Everest (altitude 8,848 m) by two climbers without supplementary oxygen in 1978 was a feat that astonished many physiologists;indeed, measurements of maximal oxygen uptake at lower altitudes suggested that it would be impossible. Data obtained in 1981 at extreme altitudes, including the summit itself, showed that man can tolerate the extreme hypoxia only by an enormous increase in ventilation. Even so, the arterial PO2 is apparently less that 30 Torr and maximal oxygen intake only about one liter per minute. Under these conditions man is at the utmost limit of tolerance to hypoxia, and even day-by-day variations of barometric pressure probably affect performance.

And the point is that it is really, really hard to do. Merely "getting from point a to point b stresses the human body to it's limits, and quite often destroys it.

Our new "rule":
For gameplay purposes, terrain with a decent potential to be deadly is made impassible. Hence, such mountains would work as an impassible terrain. And if push comes to shove, I'll draw the darn thing myself. =)

[Tomsik]

Sorry to be a pain, but...
http://www.everestnews.com/stories2005/ ... 272005.htm

Birds, however, don't go that high

False, there are some gooses(cant remember name) what flying at 9000 meters above Mt. Everest.

[Darth Fool]

How about active volcanoes. Obviously the lava would be deadly to ground units, but the toxic fumes could be deadly to flying ones as well...

[WanderingPaladin]

What about 'very high mountains' that cause damage (lack of oxygen, extreme cold)
Combine this with a movement penalty and while not totally impassable, it would be a bad idea to go there.

[Neoriceisgood]

What about 'very high mountains' that cause damage (lack of oxygen, extreme cold)
Combine this with a movement penalty and while not totally impassable, it would be a bad idea to go there.

The problem with this lies with the fact that they're searching for an actual impossible terrain

[WanderingPaladin]

What about 'very high mountains' that cause damage (lack of oxygen, extreme cold)
Combine this with a movement penalty and while not totally impassable, it would be a bad idea to go there.

The problem with this lies with the fact that they're searching for an actual impossible terrain

If the damage and movement penalty was enough to kill the unit - it would be impassable