Goblin Rouser

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Breeblebox
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Goblin Rouser

Post by Breeblebox » December 2nd, 2004, 3:40 am

Here is a proposal for a new unit. He was formerly known as 'Goblin Standard Bearer' which turned out to be far too long for the in-game label spaces. I think this is as good a name if not better. Attached are the .cfg file and graphics.

Ideally I would like to create at least one more iteration of this unit for level 2. This might be a Goblin Drummer, Goblin Bugler etc, or even a line that eventually becomes a Goblin Hero.

My argument for his inclusion: Not so much an argument as reasoning. The Goblins as a race have very few units. The Goblins have no units with special abilities (Ok, firststrike for Impaler, but just the one?!). The Northeners do not seem to have a Leadership unit, at least not in the default era, where the majority of MP games take place. Rather than make a copy of other races leaders, I have taken a very different and hopefully unique approach in that the 'leadership' unit is only useful for very low level units, and he has some character, which is important IMO.

The only thing I don't like about this unit, is playing him, and not having anything to level him up to. =]

A note on the .cfg: These are values I have tweaked and tried in single player mode against the AI. Any suggestions are welcome, but try him 'as is' first to get an impression of how he plays.

A note on the graphics: I have used the Goblin Spearman as the basis for this unit. There are several reasons. Firstly, it fits. By that I mean that he looks good surrounded by other goblins, therefore congruous. Secondly, I am a coder, not an artist. I can provide these images to anyone who would like to tweak them in .xcf (gimp) format, or any other format probably.

A note on deja vu: Yes this unit is somewhere else. I have moved it here because I would like to hear people's thoughts, and the unit thread is not the place for that.
Attachments
goblin-rouser-leading.png
goblin-rouser-leading.png (3.76 KiB) Viewed 4308 times
goblin-rouser-defend.png
goblin-rouser-defend.png (3.54 KiB) Viewed 4308 times
goblin-rouser-attack.png
goblin-rouser-attack.png (3.21 KiB) Viewed 4307 times
Last edited by Breeblebox on December 2nd, 2004, 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Breeblebox
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Post by Breeblebox » December 2nd, 2004, 3:43 am

... continued

The .cfg file contents

Code: Select all

[unit]
id=Goblin Rouser
name= _ "Goblin Rouser"
race=goblin
image=goblin-rouser.png
image_defensive=goblin-rouser-defend.png
image_leading=goblin-rouser-leading.png
hitpoints=22
ability=leadership
movement_type=elusivefoot
movement=4
experience=22
level=1
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=null
cost=16
usage=fighter
unit_description= _ "Standard Bearers are an oddity amongst Goblins. Firstly they have survived a war, but perhaps more significantly, they were remembered to have survived one by other Goblins. His oft maddened rabble on the battlefield nonetheless seems to effectively steel the younger at arms."
get_hit_sound=wolf-cry.wav
	[attack]
	name=scimitar
	type=blade
	range=short
	damage=5
	number=2
		[frame]
		begin=-100
		end=100
		image=goblin-rouser-attack.png
		[/frame]
	[/attack]
[/unit]
Attachments
goblin-rouser.png
goblin-rouser.png (3.58 KiB) Viewed 4305 times

scott
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Post by scott » December 2nd, 2004, 4:28 am

Hey, congratulations! You have been around a while so you have probably heard the brutal rejections. You preempted this by coming up with real art and config files, taking away the first-line rejection reasons we tend to come up with around here.

I actually think this could be a Level 2 advancement to the impaler/spearman, giving you an incentive to use them. If this becomes the case, the L0 unit really needs to be weakened.

In fact, I think the L0 goblin is so overpowered that if any type of northerner leadership is implemeneted it will need to be weakened anyway.
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Post by Dave » December 2nd, 2004, 4:36 am

Firstly, let me say that the developers concur with scott's opinion on the level 0 goblin being over-powered, and in CVS HEAD its hitpoints have been reduced to just 16. We feel this should make it fairly weak, since a level 1 unit has a chance of killing it in a single round.

I think this idea is reasonable though, but I think the standard bearer should be limited to never advance beyond level 1. This way, it can never lead orcs, which would seem a little silly, and could only improve goblins a little.

I will look into proposing this unit to the 'Council of Wesnoth', and see what is decided...

David
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Breeblebox
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Post by Breeblebox » December 2nd, 2004, 5:06 am

Glad to hear there is some interest, he was getting lonely in the unit thread =]

As per your suggestion regarding the level cap for Goblins Dave, I have devised another possible level 0 Goblin branch.

Goblin Drummer - level 0
*8 GP
*2x4 impact (drum stick)
*whatever hitpoints are decided for Spearmen
*Skirmisher ability

Goblin Rouser - level 1
*16GP
*2x5 blade (scimitar)
*whatever hitpoints are decided for Impalers
*Skirmisher ability
*Leadership ability

Alternatively, could the Goblins pioneer [sic] a new 'breadth-first' type of leveling, ie; only a few goblin units all at level 0, but each branches into multiple level 1 units at which point they are capped. Seems to fit with the general concept of Goblins.

What does everyone think?
BTW, I'm open to suggestions on the existing art.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » December 2nd, 2004, 11:11 am

I think that putting this unit as a level-up for the Spearman would be nice, possibly giving it a level 2 as well.
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turin
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Post by turin » December 2nd, 2004, 1:27 pm

i think its a good idea, now we just need a graphics dev to approve the art. (no one who has posted here so far is one. :roll: )
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sanna
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Post by sanna » December 2nd, 2004, 6:04 pm

I have one, but a very big, grievance with this graphic. It is proposed as a 'normal' unit, yet the standard is clearly from SotBE. The current graphic would therefore only be suitable in SotBE.


On a sidenote, I am as yet not convinced of the necessity of this unit.

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Post by MRhe » December 2nd, 2004, 6:21 pm

sanna wrote:I have one, but a very big, grievance with this graphic. It is proposed as a 'normal' unit, yet the standard is clearly from SotBE. The current graphic would therefore only be suitable in SotBE.


On a sidenote, I am as yet not convinced of the necessity of this unit.
Is this really a big issue? It seems reasonable to me that the standard he's holding is the Northerner standard (pun most definitely intended).

I really like the idea of this unit, and I like the graphics. Although I'm not sure about the Goblin Drummer...seems like a 16 HP 4-2 unit would be very hard to lvl...as it is, Goblins are pretty hard to lvl.

I think it would be good from a gameplay standpoint to make Goblin spearmen weaker, and have the Goblin Rouser simply start as an L1 unit. This way, the spearmen are basically cannon fodder unless you choose to lead them, and then they can be effective as mass infantry.

I also like the idea of an L2 version of this unit, to lead leveled goblins. Not sure that the fact that he can lead other Northerner units is necessarily a bad thing...as a weak 5-2 unit, he'll be difficult to level as well.

Perhaps for L2 we could have a Goblin Bugler...mounted atop a horse/donkey/wolf/cat? :wink:

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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel » December 2nd, 2004, 9:52 pm

scott wrote:Hey, congratulations! You have been around a while so you have probably heard the brutal rejections. You preempted this by coming up with real art and config files, taking away the first-line rejection reasons we tend to come up with around here.

I actually think this could be a Level 2 advancement to the impaler/spearman, giving you an incentive to use them. If this becomes the case, the L0 unit really needs to be weakened.

In fact, I think the L0 goblin is so overpowered that if any type of northerner leadership is implemeneted it will need to be weakened anyway.
IIRC, neo actually made the art for this guy and proposed him in the unit thread, some weeks ago. Props to beeblebrox for saving and reproposing the graphics.

I agree with Dave's sentiment regarding the fact that this guy should not, under any circumstances, lead orcs. I'm also glad he took down the hp on the goblin spearmen, though I still think their damage should be reduced, especially if this guy gets in.

And hey - I've got a better idea - how about this guy stays unrecruitable?
Leave him as an advancement of the goblin spearman, and thus he needs no special level-1.

I must say that "goblin drummer" just doesn't do it for me, especially if his drumming has no game effect.

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turin
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Post by turin » December 2nd, 2004, 10:06 pm

the SotBE is not the standard northerner flag, it is the flag of a specific orcish tribe, the Black Eye tribe, or whatever kapou'e's tribe is called.

I think a blank red flag, and smaller than this flag, it would be better.
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Breeblebox
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Post by Breeblebox » December 2nd, 2004, 10:10 pm

IIRC, neo actually made the art for this guy and proposed him in the unit thread, some weeks ago.
Thanks for the complement Jetryl (neo, love your work), but I definitely made these images, AND posted them in the unit thread =]

I am liking the new direction this idea is taking, ie;

You can only recruit a single level zero goblin (currently spearman), but when leveling you get a choice of multiple incarnations - Impaler, Rouser, possibly others...

It solves the problem of a Goblin leading Orcs, and adds an element of fun/ gameplay/ usefulness/ campaign opportunities etc to the Goblins as a race.

As for the flag, it was kinda arbitrary when I was drawing him, I'm certainly not 'precious' about it. Sorry if I pinched someones art and used it inappropriately.

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Post by Rhuvaen » December 2nd, 2004, 10:33 pm

I really appreciate this unit idea, and agree with the sentiment that it would be good as an upgrade only to the goblin spearmen, with no further advances (no leadership for orcs and level 1's).

I think though that the banner isn't quite appropriate - it looks a bit too grand only for leading other spearmen units. I think a skull held high impaled over a spear should be enough! (also the existing banner is too static while the unit attacks...)

Now, if this unit would make adjacent spearmen go berserk I'd like it even better :twisted:

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Post by quartex » December 3rd, 2004, 12:34 am

A skull on a stick sounds like a cool alternative. This sounds like an interesting, if very weak, unit. I mean, 0 level goblins are so weak, how useful would a leadership unit that helped them be?

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Post by MRhe » December 3rd, 2004, 12:48 am

quartex wrote:A skull on a stick sounds like a cool alternative. This sounds like an interesting, if very weak, unit. I mean, 0 level goblins are so weak, how useful would a leadership unit that helped them be?
Well, I think the idea is that the normally weak (relatively, because they are actually fairly powerful @ night) goblins are more useful with the bonus of a leader. That 25% bonus would really help them...they could deal out some serious damage yet still be essentially weak units.

And yes, I hadn't really intended the Rouser to be recruitable...I think it would be a good branch option off the L0 Goblin.

I also like the skull-on-a-stick idea for the "standard."

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