Status of Loyalist Baseframes

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Atz
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by Atz » June 26th, 2011, 9:42 am

Okay, full version ready, with changed palette as requested. I'm concerned it might look a little large for a level 1 unit, especially next to that lieutenant. It's actually exactly the same height as the old HI, but it looks a bit larger because the top two pixels of the old one are just helmet spikes. On the other hand, the new level 2 units look a bit more impressive, and the HI is supposed to be a huge heavy thing. It also lacks spikes, which I hope is okay. I wanted it to look like an actual suit of armour. I know the Shock Trooper's description (briefly) mentions spikes but the HI's doesn't, so perhaps the L2 version could get some spikey bits as a differentiating factor. Any issues?
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by thespaceinvader » June 26th, 2011, 10:28 am

Probably. Or, it just keeps them visually distinct. Or, it's blacked to make them less visible at night when they're doing what they do best and beating down skeletons. Or...

Well, you get the picture. Really, it's a different colour because I'd want the HI to be visually distinct.

EDIT: Kickback based on the Halberdier armour. Possibly a little big...

The mace on yours looks better, though.
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by JAP » June 26th, 2011, 10:55 am

The mace looks great but it is absolutely humongous.
Perhaps save it for level 3 and use a smaller for level1?
Just a quick example of a more realistic mace.
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by Atz » June 26th, 2011, 12:19 pm

Looking at TSI's version, I notice that mine is still way less shiny than appears to be the standard. Palette notwithstanding, most of the armour on TSI's sprite is very bright, while mine is mostly midtones. With that in mind, here's a version with a bit more contrast. I do actually think it looks a bit better, more like shiny metal.
HI_redux_highcontrast.png
HI_redux_highcontrast.png (1.94 KiB) Viewed 3444 times
I also find it kind of amusing that my HI is a bit wider than the original because the morningstar sticks out, and TSI's is even wider than mine. It appears that, following a backlash against making units progressively taller, we are now suffering creeping widerism instead. :P
JAP wrote:The mace looks great but it is absolutely humongous.
Perhaps save it for level 3 and use a smaller for level1?
Just a quick example of a more realistic mace.
Well, the original HI's is pretty big, though of course we don't have to follow that. The reason I made the mace unrealistically large, however, is that it's obvious and easy to read. Real maces have very small heads, and I'm not sure a tiny blob of dark pixels would be very clear, particularly against terrains which are busy or similar in colour (caves, castles, villages, etc.). Also, one of the main features of the HI is that it deals impact damage and is therefore good for bashing skeletons. Exaggerating the mace helps get it across that the HI has a different damage type. Not to mention that Wesnoth sprites already have exaggerated proportions, and the HI would hardly be the only unit sprite with a larger-than-realistic weapon.

I mean, if a smaller head works, that's great. But there are reasons for the large weapon beyond "oh hey this is fantasy so everyone will wield metre wide swords in a single hand", is what I'm saying. Basically I wanted it to be completely clear that the HI is wielding a big blunt lump of metal.

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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by Zerovirus » June 26th, 2011, 5:08 pm

I can't believe I of all people am saying this (since I usually love graphical updates and everything this thread has been producing has largely been awesome) but I really feel that the new HI proposals aren't enough of an improvement to warrant the change. The new HI just doesn't give me to same feel of intimidation that the old one has, for some reason- and I feel like the old sprites, ironically, are crisper and easier to read than the new proposed sprites.

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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by thespaceinvader » June 26th, 2011, 5:56 pm

Really? The old HI is one of my least favourite sprites in the game, to be honest.

See what you can come up with for it.
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by Atz » June 27th, 2011, 4:29 am

The HI's shield always bugged me. It looks like it's being held in the fist at arm's length, like a tiny buckler, even though it's large-ish and (apparently) solid metal. Also the idle animation looks a bit weird because he meticulously holds his mace perfectly vertical while placing his shield on the ground. It's as if it's a glass of drink and all the mace is going to spill out if he tilts it.

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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by artisticdude » June 27th, 2011, 2:11 pm

I like tsi's take on the HI, but I have the 'copy/paste feeling' about the shield, and I can't help but think that there is something out of proportion about his torso... like it's too short compared to his legs, or something. :hmm:

Also, out of curiosity: for the mace, do we want to keep the spiked-ball idea, or is it an option to go for a flanged mace?
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by thespaceinvader » June 27th, 2011, 3:53 pm

Much as the realist in me wants a flanged one, the spiked ball is just that much easier to read, so that should stay I think.

Also, I'm a dumbass. The shield feels c+p'd because I didn't shade behind it.
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by Atz » June 28th, 2011, 2:06 am

I actually tried a flanged mace at first, but I found it was a total nuisance to get the flanges to read properly at that scale.

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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by Sleepwalker » June 28th, 2011, 4:57 pm

Thanks for the compliments, Okey dokey I fixed the halberd.

Now to be blunt about my opinion regarding Heavy infantry FWIW:

I feel I must agree a bit with zerovirus here, in that Atz's HI is not a big enough improvement. First off the old legs are there, which imo is one of things that could be improved (legs, head, shield, replace tassels... even overall stance). The shield looks very thin (which could be fixed with a nice rim) and both Atz's and TSI's versions could IMO be smaller. Atz's helmet is like the one Jetrel joked about on page 1, which does not bode well I.E too much like a bucket. Makes me think of the first Ironman suit though, which is not bad hehe. And then we have something that I myself don't care so much about but which is very evident here: Lots Of Banding.

TSI's is nicer, but to me it is pretty evident you took a recolored Halberdier and made most parts fatter, then added shield, spikes and morningstar. OK no problem with that, but I think we can do better... Then as you say yourself I think it is too big. We still have to compare other lvl1 units that are final with this one. I mean it is even bigger than the lvl2 Shock trooper. OK I am for the idea that they are bigger than other humans but when his torso is twice as wide as the Spearmans it is going too far I think.

Anyway... Now I have gone and made my own Heavy infantry and Shock trooper... They use the same palette as the old HI except I added one color and slightly changed another. I made a version with mace and one with morningstar... Though I think I am partial to the morningstar one. The Shock trooper evolved from an attempt to edit TSI's sprite.
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by thespaceinvader » June 28th, 2011, 5:20 pm

Yummy.

Shock trooper should still have a flail, I think, but otherwise great. The flanged maces are just great, easy enough to read and far less goofy-looking than the ball ones. Iron Mauler next please :D

(yes, I was secretly hoping sleepwalker would come along and do sleepwalker things to those :D)
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by Zerovirus » June 28th, 2011, 5:38 pm

Now this change I can get behind. One thing that'd be nice, though, would be some more change in height as opposed to, uh, girth, as the HI levels up- the original HIs have a much more realistic set of proportions than the proposed replacements, and that's one of the good things there in my opinion- despite their obviously hulking nature, they're still realistically humanoid. The new ones, especially the Lv2, seems very horizontally distorted- and comparing the old Shocktrooper to the new one shows that the new one has decreased by 2 pixels in height, which I think is slightly less preferable.

And just as a personal preference, the new shield is a bit textured- the old flat shield was rather elegant in its simplicity, in my opinion.

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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by artisticdude » June 28th, 2011, 6:31 pm

:D The HI looks great, no critique from me on that.

I agree with Zero about the Shock Trooper's hight, which seems to me to be closer to a lvl 1's hight than a lvl 2's. :hmm: For instance, the green line on the chart below shows where the bottom of the head (the neck/chin area) is on the other loyalist lvl 2's. Even given the slightly hunched pose of the ST, his head still seems to be much lower than any of the other lvl 2s'. The blue line demonstrates approximately where the lower part of the chest starts on the other lvl 2's, and it ends up being on the middle of the chest of the ST. Like Zero suggested, this can be solved by increasing the hight of the ST's torso by 1 or two pixels, which I did (by one pixel) on the far right of the chart. Even that still makes him look a little stubby, so perhaps another pixel of hight is called for.

EDIT: Golly that .gif's frame rate has increased, :hmm: Hopefully it's just my browser, but meh. It gets the idea across.
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HI.png
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cmprsn.gif
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Re: Status of Loyalist Baseframes

Post by beetlenaut » June 29th, 2011, 12:25 am

thespaceinvader wrote:Shock trooper should still have a flail, I think
I never understood this. The level 1 and 3 both have a mace. It's no problem if he switches weapons, but why switch back?
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