Interesting medieval font

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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby fabi » November 27th, 2010, 4:07 am

Sorry for speaking up in a matter that is not part of my expertise.
Please choose a font that is in the spirit of open source.

Thank you,
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby silene » November 27th, 2010, 7:36 am

Noy wrote:
Sgt. Groovy wrote:A non-free font could well be used, if a commercial license for it would be obtained by someone in the project. The license would have to cover installation of the font on multiple computers, though, so that it could be redistributed to people doing internationalisation work. For the fonts I linked above, the license covers 100 installations, which should be well enough.

Thats also incompatible with GPL unfortunately.

No, it isn't incompatible.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby Noy » November 27th, 2010, 8:58 am

silene wrote:
Noy wrote:
Sgt. Groovy wrote:A non-free font could well be used, if a commercial license for it would be obtained by someone in the project. The license would have to cover installation of the font on multiple computers, though, so that it could be redistributed to people doing internationalisation work. For the fonts I linked above, the license covers 100 installations, which should be well enough.

Thats also incompatible with GPL unfortunately.

No, it isn't incompatible.


We've had a bit of a discussion on this over IRC and while there is some disagreement on different interpretations, I think artists should continue to look for an alternative. If you find one that you like we can deal with the legal/financial aspects of it afterwards.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby Sgt. Groovy » November 27th, 2010, 11:26 am

I don't see how using licenced, non-free fonts for creating artwork would be incompatible with GPL, because the font files would not be needed to be distributed with the game. Using them for the UI would be a different matter.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby Noy » November 27th, 2010, 1:04 pm

Sgt. Groovy wrote:I don't see how using licenced, non-free fonts for creating artwork would be incompatible with GPL, because the font files would not be needed to be distributed with the game. Using them for the UI would be a different matter.



The argument made by one is that you need to distribute them with the game otherwise (or be able to freely use them) otherwise you're contravening GPL. GPL must allow everybody to freely modify and use the source code. You must be able to take any part of the game and be able to use it as you wish. The nature of the pia-fruss's license is that there is a limitation of how many computers can have the font files (100 per 17 euros I think it was and 34 for 200 or something.) That would be in contravention of GPL according to this view. I'm not saying this is the correct interpretation, but it might be one we need to be aware of.

Again, just concentrate on finding a font you want, let me and others figure out the legal side afterwards. It a bit of a waste of time for myself or others to theoretically talk about legal issues just because you "might" like some of these fonts. Rather find a specific font you like, (from something like the pia-fruss website) and we'll see what we can do. In that case we might be able to negotiate with the license holder to get an exception or purchase it wholesale to suit gpl.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby silene » November 27th, 2010, 2:10 pm

Noy wrote:The argument made by one is that you need to distribute them with the game otherwise (or be able to freely use them) otherwise you're contravening GPL. GPL must allow everybody to freely modify and use the source code.

Is the font needed to compile Wesnoth? No! Is the font needed to execute Wesnoth? No! Is the logo font even distributed with Wesnoth? No! What makes you think that the font is part of Wesnoth source code?

You could argue that it is the case if we were requiring Photoshop/Gimp to compile Wesnoth and distributing only the psd/xcf files. But no, we aren't. What we are distributing are bitmap files. These bitmap files can be modified, replaced, distributed, and so on; they are the actual source code. The way they have been obtained (the graphic software, the font, the textures, and so on) are not. If the way they have been obtained is compatible with the GPL, they can be shipped with Wesnoth.

In other words, Sgt Groovy is completely right.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby Sgt. Groovy » November 27th, 2010, 6:46 pm

Again, just concentrate on finding a font you want, let me and others figure out the legal side afterwards. It a bit of a waste of time for myself or others to theoretically talk about legal issues just because you "might" like some of these fonts.


And it's a waste of time for me to go through thousands of fonts only to find out out that the one I've chosen can't be used or is too expensive. I've already spent several work days worth of time wading through font sites, and that's only the free ones. "We'll deal with it" is not enough for an assurance, because if the font has non-GPL compatible license, and the copyright holder refuses to issue another, there's nothing we can do.

The argument made by one is that you need to distribute them with the game otherwise (or be able to freely use them)


Are you saying that for programming languages for which free compilers/interpreters do not exist, no GPL software can be produced?
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby kitty » November 28th, 2010, 8:34 pm

While I truly wish we'd find a font in the spirit of the GPL, I find it highly unlikely. And I'm glad that you will take care of the legal issues once we have found some suitable options, Noy. What I don't understand is how a free font (what kind of "free" license that may have…) can be turned into something compatible, but a commercial font we would purchase wouldn't be an option. I just don't get the difference.
For Noy's suggestion of hiring a type designer I suppose you aren't aware of the amount of work a typeface is, that's more than drawing 26 letters - think of all the special characters, the kerning and spacing and generally the really, really special knowledge and abilities needed. I assume hiring someone of sufficient professionally is way out of our league.
An easier option would be a single hand-drawn logo-type, which we could commission or conjointly produce ourselves. But that would also mean relinquishing to use localized logos at all, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.


But back to the original question of searching for a typeface. For the participating artists I suggest generating a list of words/concepts/emotions the font should convey and an additional list of technical/aesthetical requirements. If we can agree on such lists searching will be much easier and less dependent on personal taste.

Technically, I want a font that is not too thin, has a stable feel, contains special characters for as many languages as possible, has a certain recognition value and if it is a blackletter face it should contain an alternate to the long-s (due to legibility).
Association-wise I want it to say "medieval-setting" and "fantasy", pretty straightforward. Not authentically medieval but medieval flavored.

Anyone with additions or objections?
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby AI » November 28th, 2010, 9:39 pm

With 'free', we mean open source, not gratis.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby Eleazar » November 29th, 2010, 7:56 pm

It shouldn't be necessary to distribute all fonts with the game, and therefore GPL shouldn't be required.

The use under discussion is not is not for arbitrary text, but as a tool to help us make "art" i.e. the Wesnoth logotype saved as a PNG. The only people that need it would be the artists that make the logos. It's the same in principle as using a legally aquired version of photoshop for wesnoth.

Obviously it would be simpler to use a GPL font, but the selection is much narrower. I haven't found a source for GPL fonts that includes anything remotely appropriate for our Logo.


EDIT: wrote this before i realized there was a page 2 to this topic
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby kitty » November 29th, 2010, 9:45 pm

AI wrote:With 'free', we mean open source, not gratis.
Thanks, but I'm well aware that free as in no cost, is differnt from free/libre... ;)
My question rather was how a freeware font (and there are a great many of different freeware licenses around) can "become" suitable for us but how a commerical font we buy can not. But until we know if that is a question at all and if we need the font itself as kind of a source, I don't really need an answer - just curious.


Regarding really compatible fonts, the most comprehensive collection I'm aware of is the Open Font Library, which really has nothing that says Fantasy in any way...
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby AI » November 30th, 2010, 3:31 pm

Free fonts tend to be compatible with th GPL and even if not, we can still distribute it. Commercial fonts tend to have licenses that prohibit you from redistributing, which could be problematic.
We probably don't legally need the font as a source, but for the l10n project, we would like to distribute it to a lot of people, which may pratically be the same thing.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby silene » November 30th, 2010, 4:30 pm

AI wrote:We probably don't legally need the font as a source, but for the l10n project, we would like to distribute it to a lot of people, which may pratically be the same thing.

It may be practically the same thing, but it's nonetheless much easier. For instance, a license for a single Pia Frauss' font is 21 euros, and the license allows for installing the font on 100 computers. Even if the logo were to be translated in all the languages currently used on Earth, the cost for the Wesnoth project would still be ridiculously low.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby Eleazar » November 30th, 2010, 6:00 pm

Anyway, it's not as if the logo in each language would need to be rendered by a native speaker. A single artist if provided a list of the proper translation of "Battle for Wesnoth" in our all current languages could render them all out in a single sitting (after the logo had been designed). The above scenario is a little too perfect, but realistically only a few people would need to install the font.
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Re: Interesting medieval font

Postby Gambit » November 30th, 2010, 6:22 pm

I don't really know much about this discussion, but I thought I'd point out that it's not just the logo.
Sgt. Groovy's original post mentions using this for labels and such. IIUC the game would need the entire font with it in order to do labels because we never know what text will be in a label.
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