Orc Portrait Series

[thespaceinvader]

The second one has a little too much in the way of tusks going on, i think, and his lower face in general has perhaps drifted just a touch too far towards the gorilla. Also, compared with the size of his hands, his sword looks really, really tiny. Compare the length of the handle with the width of his pal, the former seems about half the latter, even taking the foreshortening into account.

Otherwise, looking very cool =)

[Rocket Slug]

I wonder what kind of biological/anatomical references you're going for with the orcs, LordBob. Just looking back on the sketches Girgistan and TSI worked on for SotBE, they really tried to define an animalistic, feral quality towards them (and in the meantime strived to avoid making them "a caricature of brutality" as Jet puts it). I'm curious if you're taking any of those precedents into consideration because at first glance the linework just says "generic bulky hominoid" to me. By virtue of referencing other iconic animals' features, Girgistan's sketches immediately struck you with what orcs were about. Maybe you're purposefully avoiding the "feral" look to prevent such associations, but it'd be appreciated if you can comment on it.

[LordBob]

TSI : duly noted. You're right, taking a glance at my sketchbook, my orc faces have been drifting towards the ape. I'll get back to his face and sword before I shade, and also probably get rid of the glove : it feels completely random and the posture just looks like the orc's screaming "Oh, what a shiny glove I've gotten myself"

RocketSlug : the faces of these orcs were initially designed after Girgistian's studies in the Portrait Sketches topic and took after the main features he had specified - abundant facial hair, prominent jaw, thick eyebrow arches, hairy ears...However, they have slowly been drifting towards different waters - in the long run it is difficult to keep unchanged a design that isn't my own. It can't be helped, it's like asking a person to speak a foreign language without any accent : they'll manage it over a short period, but it takes someone really gifted to do it all the time - and I'm not that someone.

As far as SotBE portraits are concerned, I wasn't around here when these were done and I haven't been looking at them when designing the new orcs. Apart from their faces (which indeed already have that typical signature of Girgistian's orcs), I have a hard time finding any "animalistic, feral quality" in the anatomy of SotBE portraits. If anything, they look as good a "generic bulky humanoid" as the new orcs.
Now back to said new orcs, I do strive to make them bulky while keeping as far as possible from Marvel muscles. I aim for long ape-like arms and a slight hunch meant to give them a more primitive look. And of course I try to stick to the generally accepted facial design. Other than that, if by "feral" you mean "more hairy", well it's nothing shading won't be able to solve.

Anyway I feel the "feral" part is still somewhere out there, judging how TSI sees too much gorilla in one of them

[mabeenot]

Is it just me, or are their heads a little small for their bodies? Maybe it's just the big muscular arms throwing my anatomical expectations off.

[thespaceinvader]

We were still refining the design when we did the sotbe portraits. We got a little way towards the finalised look, but we hadn't really nailed it down by then.

[A-Red]

On the other hand, the representation of orcs in SoTBE is matched nicely by its portraits, and that campaign is probably the best canon representation of orcish civilization in the game. Even Shan Taum couldn't be described as "feral."

[thespaceinvader]

Indeed. However, being from the orcs point of view, it necessarily paints them as slightly less malevolent than they really are. If you pay attention, you'll note that Kapou'e, despite being the hero, is an arrogant, violent sociopath. He just has bigger ideas than most.

In portrait terms, their ears would need fixing up, and they would in general need more in the way of muzzle, and probably to be hairier, too.

[A-Red]

Arrogant and violent, but not a sociopath. He cares about those who serve him, I think. But maybe that's neither here nor there.

I don't mind orcs being portrayed as more naturally malevolent than humans, if you want to think of it that way, but I'm a bit bothered by the idea of making them more animalistic. I like that SotBE portrayed them as less culturally refined than true humans (or certainly less so than elves), but still basically human on most levels.

Or maybe it makes sense to say that what culture orcs have is largely available only to those with...privilege? That could be fair, and wouldn't be too unlike reality.

[Girgistian]

I like that SotBE portrayed them as less culturally refined than true humans (or certainly less so than elves), but still basically human on most levels.

Actually, I tried to make the sketches (which tsi coloured) more to the animalistic direction, but didn't have any clear idea of a generic orc back then. And I'm certainly not going to get back to them now that I do, for a few years at least.

[thespaceinvader]

We're not talking about making them animalistic in terms of behaviour, only in terms of appearance - we want these guys to be visually distinct from humans in other ways than just muscles and skin colour. However, we also want to avoid making them look like something out of planet of the apes, or like something out of a werewolf movie. it's a very fine line to walk, and I think LB is doing a good job so far. The portrayal jet suggests is a more or less realistic one for the time and technology frame we're portraying.

[Rocket Slug]

Thanks for the reply, LB. I vaguely remember somewhere along the line Girgistian mentioned he drew some inspiration from wolves along with the obvious ape-like facial structure. Looking back at the portraits, perhaps my memory's been a little rose-tinted.

But I think I figured out why they seemed to be so "generically humanoid." Girgistian placed where the neck met the base of the skull further back, which sets the head lower and produces their distinctive hunch. This and the fact that many of Girgistian's old portraits had the orcs snarling really brought to mind a prowling hunter, which is what brought out the feral quality I was talking about. And so, despite what TSI said, I do think that some inspiration from the posture of werewolves would benefit.

[LordBob]

But I think I figured out why they seemed to be so "generically humanoid." Girgistian placed where the neck met the base of the skull further back, which sets the head lower and produces their distinctive hunch

Should you take a closer look, you'll notice that some of the new orcs already have a slight hunch and most of them show almost no neck : I am precisely trying to achieve the effect you describe. However, not overdoing it while keeping it recognizable is yet another thin line to walk...

Anyway, revised lineart and flats for the first two grunts.

Edit : on a closer look, the second one's front forearm is a lot shorter than the rear forearm. More revisions to come...

[thespaceinvader]

I think you could do with scaling the head of the first one up by 10% or so, and the second by 5% or so - the small heads are good to exaggerate their musculature, but at the same time, their heads are not a great deal bigger than their fists, which looks a little silly to my mind. Otherwise, looking great =)

[Sapient]

Out of the two, I defintely like the second one better. He's got the cape (like the sprite), and I like the helmet+armor design.

One thing that kinda bugs me is the nose. I may disagree with TSI or other artist-types on this, but I find the ape facial characteristics are more prone to inspire laughter than intimidation. Now, I agree that the ape body is appropriate, maybe even the mouth. But, I think giving him a more human nose would go a long way towards some respectability.

Having said that, I'm not an portrait director or even art contributor, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm just a guy who likes orcs and hopes they will be as fearsome as befits their race.

[LordBob]

Done with the second grunt's forearm.

As to the head business : of the two below, one has a 5% bigger head, the other hasn't. Still I'm not sure I'll stick with the head enlargement. While what you noticed is true with human body proportion, I feel I'm allowed a little cheat with the orc body. For I like the idea of big hands and small heads, it makes for a good brute.

But, I think giving him a more human nose would go a long way towards some respectability.

Plainly, no. Girgistian's orc noses are more on the pointy side, whereas my sketches are drifting towards flat-nosed : this I can correct, but the overall nose design isn't changing. Girgistian, TSI and others had enough of a hard time stabilizing the facial features of Wesnoth orcs : I like the result and I'm not going to jeopardize their efforts.