Loyalist Portrait Series

[Skrim]

Wow, very nice. That Master at Arms achieves a perfect blend of posh aristocrat and deadly duelist. I'm developing a habit of getting a little excited every time I see this thread updated - each one of these portraits is brilliant.

Are there actually ANY campaigns in which Fencers are recruitable?

No mainlines, at least, IIRC.

Which is kind of crappy. Masters at Arms are among the rarest units, since they're highly improbable to get in MP and are not in present in any campaign.

EI could have Fencers but doesn't. It doesn't have Bowmen either. TSG could have them but doesn't. And there are no other mainline campaigns in which you play as the Royal Wesnoth Army, which is the only military that uses them.

[LordBob]

Linework time for the Grand Knight ! I came up with two alternative pictures and I'm considering up to four should I change the lance for a sword arm. (plus, it would fit perfectly with the awesome Test of the Clans scenario from the HttT campaign )

Design-related comments are welcome as any fixes at this stage ought to be pretty easy. I'm also worried about the scale of the horse compared to its rider, so if any of you warhorse-loving people are out there, your insight is welcome.

[thespaceinvader]

I prefer the first option, but I feel that there ought to be a bit more bulk in the shoulders - the head currently feels a little too big compared to the body. Otherwise, awesome. I don't know much about the relative sizes of horses and riders, so I can't really comment there...

[Neoskel]

Wow, that's freakin' awesome!

No real niggles about the design, but some suggestions:

When you color these guys, consider using at least slightly different color schemes. You might want to differentiate the horse head armor a little, backswept horns would be one alternate design to consider. Or 'dragon ear' things like those Lego horses had in some old sets. Example Not terribly practical and i didn't find any real-world references for those kind of details, but this is a fantasy game right?

Oh, i guess the second one (the one with the SoF on his breastplate) could use some filigree or whatever around the image of the scepter, it just doesn't seem quite busy enough there and he need something to compete with the pure awesomeness of the first one's helmet.

[furioso]

I came up with two alternative pictures...

Both of them are stunning! Though I slightly prefer the first one, mainly because of the helmet design.

I'm also worried about the scale of the horse compared to its rider, so if any of you warhorse-loving people are out there, your insight is welcome.

I don't see any realism issues with the horse. Mediaeval warhorses weren't especially big, as such, more heavy; Norman warhorses were shorter at the shoulder than, for example, modern racehorses, the main reason being that a very tall horse is a pain to mount if you're wearing armour. They would more resemble a medium-sized draft horse, and the one you've drawn looks sufficiently tough for the job.

[Velensk]

I might actually play HttT again after you're done with that, just so that I can see some of those portaits.

The only thing that bothers me slightly is the thickness of the lance. I know that they were indeed rather thick, however I don't think they were that thick. Also I do not imagine that anyone would want to hold a lance of that size at that angle. Judging by the size of the horse it would either be dug into the ground a few inches, or it would be resting on the ground (the former seems more likely to me). If it is not resting on the ground, then you still wouldn't want to hold it that way unless you were posing because it would be strain on the arm to hold it like that.

[Crunchy]

Okay...I know we're not supposed to speak here unless we have something useful to say, but DAMN that is sexy. It's my favorite unit in the game too so I can't wait till it's finished!

[Antonius]

Okay...I know we're not supposed to speak here unless we have something useful to say, but DAMN that is sexy. It's my favorite unit in the game too so I can't wait till it's finished!

I'm not gonna ask...



I'd prefer the first one with fewer squigggles. I'd also like to see some burly armor on him.

[Skrim]

The only thing that bothers me slightly is the thickness of the lance. I know that they were indeed rather thick, however I don't think they were that thick. Also I do not imagine that anyone would want to hold a lance of that size at that angle. Judging by the size of the horse it would either be dug into the ground a few inches, or it would be resting on the ground (the former seems more likely to me). If it is not resting on the ground, then you still wouldn't want to hold it that way unless you were posing because it would be strain on the arm to hold it like that.

Same thing here. I wouldn't expect to see the lance that thick, especially compared to the Paladin's lance. And it does look as if the Grand Knight is pointing it into the ground.

[LordBob]

Duly noted about the thickness of the lance, it's an easy fix.

Upcoming modifications :

#1 will get a horse-helmet which matches the carved ram on his pauldrons
#2 will get additional cape folds covering his shoulders in order to make him bulkier
I'll scale up the horse based on some reference : historical accuracy notwithstanding, I think the knight will look more powerful this way.

Also I do not imagine that anyone would want to hold a lance of that size at that angle. Judging by the size of the horse it would either be dug into the ground a few inches, or it would be resting on the ground (the former seems more likely to me). If it is not resting on the ground, then you still wouldn't want to hold it that way unless you were posing because it would be strain on the arm to hold it like that.

Cropping limit, people. Remember, our portraits may only crop on the bottom and left sides. Whichs means I can have lots of fun coming up with amusing ways of fitting 10 feet poles in the frame while retaining a realistic posture.
Anyway this is rather fortunate, as I precisely meant him to rest the tip of his lance on the ground : dialog poses are usually relaxed, so I thought he wouldn't be holding his lance ready for a strike. Nevertheless, having it semi-horizontal with the tip downwards means he can quickly switch it back to a fighting stance : fits perfectly for a veteran unit.

I'd prefer the first one with fewer squigggles. I'd also like to see some burly armor on him.

I'm going to adress this with detail, because it's a recurring concern with the Loys - one I'm myself not at peace with.
In the end, it's all down to editorial choices. What has been done until now with most loyalist units, is to translate level advancement into richer garnishment of their weapons, clothing and armour.
From a realistic point of view, this is complete crap : over a half of the portrayed units display shiny parade gear that would be utterly ruined the minute it enters a battlefield. In the real world, upper levels really are veterans who have access to heavier, more fitting armour, not gold trim and lace. Kitty's Outlaws are a fine example of this and I intend the Orcs to be as well. As for the Loys, if I played along that line every last one of them should resemble the Lieutenant, or the Iron Mauler. Not an unpleasant perspective, but a *lot* of work considering how many portraits I've already done... Fortunately the gold trim thing conveys a loyal-good-heroic image that suits their faction well enough, so I'll stick with it to the bitter end. Had I given this matter deeper thinking six months ago, the loyalist portraits would be very different. However we're too close to the end now.

So, no burly armour for the Grand Knight. He's all about lordly gold and engraved plates, and probably has silk underwear.

[Sangel]

So, no burly armour for the Grand Knight. He's all about lordly gold and engraved plates, and probably has silk underwear.

It's funny that you should say that, because the second Grand Knight variant strikes me as rather feminine. Having a variant that could work for a female in full-plate could be very useful...

Excellent work, as always. My only quibble would be on lance thickness, but you're already addressing that, so I have no constructive criticism. I greatly look forward to seeing the results of your shading.

[Jetrel]

This is pretty amazing; I like both of the sketches, and I like the direction you're going in with the proposed changes.

Fortunately the gold trim thing conveys a loyal-good-heroic image that suits their faction well enough, so I'll stick with it to the bitter end. Had I given this matter deeper thinking six months ago, the loyalist portraits would be very different. However we're too close to the end now.

Not to mention that this is fantasy, and one of the reasons to bother doing this in the first place is to patch over 'flaws' in the real world, such as pragmatic things tending to look boring after a while. It's kind of a rude contradiction that our instinctive sense of what looks cool is rather out of sync with what's practical.

In the broad scope of videogames, this is fairly tame 'bling' - many games go the route of Warhammer, with armor so massive people wouldn't realistically be able to move in it, or worse, the route of Warcraft, which is a proper circus. I think we're at a nice balance point where we don't look gaudily unrealistic, but we also are ornate and fanciful enough to look cool and novel.

[doofus-01]

It's funny that you should say that, because the second Grand Knight variant strikes me as rather feminine. Having a variant that could work for a female in full-plate could be very useful..

I also thought it looked like the female version. They both look nice though.
EDIT: I wasn't saying there would be a mainline female grand knight unit, I meant just as a portrait for a hypothetical campaign character.

[Crunchy]

Really? It doesn't look feminine at all to me. I also don't think a female Grand Knight is necessary for obvious reasons. I'm not saying it can't be done. There are women that would make me look like a little school-boy, but I don't think the game is missing anything without them, and I would probably be more inclined to say WTF if there was one.

[mabeenot]

It's funny that you should say that, because the second Grand Knight variant strikes me as rather feminine. Having a variant that could work for a female in full-plate could be very useful..

I also thought it looked like the female version. They both look nice though.

A female grand knight might be nice, except then you'd need female lvl 1 and 2 units. I think the second one looks "manly" enough. It could be just an alternate used for campaign leaders or maybe have something to do with the difference between loyalist grand knights and the clansmen in HttT.