Star-shaped Ellipses

[Jetrel]

In campaign play, often you are fighting with AI-controlled allies on your side. Sometimes you are allowed to let them die. Sometimes you are not. But, since they are able to recruit, they will get the golden crown either way. If the golden crown is changed to mean can-recruit-and-cannot-die, instead of just can-recruit, it will become unclear when you are allowed to let your allies die, and when you are not.

This is not rare at all. It happens all the time in campaigns. So I think we really do have to have the "complexity of having two simultaneous icons".

OKAY THEN.

If you ask me, this "complaint" is a load of {insert happy word}.



However, we can actually get you the ... "best of both worlds", since you want it so darned bad, and since it's actually quite simple for us to do.

We can raise the height of the gold crown, and make the silver crown an overlay that overlaps the bottom of the gold crown; looking like it is joined to it (combo gold-and-silver motifs worked very well for, say, the crown of gondor). Another good conceptual example would be the joining of a engagement ring to a wedding ring.

[SkeletonCrew]

In campaign play, often you are fighting with AI-controlled allies on your side. Sometimes you are allowed to let them die. Sometimes you are not. But, since they are able to recruit, they will get the golden crown either way. If the golden crown is changed to mean can-recruit-and-cannot-die, instead of just can-recruit, it will become unclear when you are allowed to let your allies die, and when you are not.

This is not rare at all. It happens all the time in campaigns. So I think we really do have to have the "complexity of having two simultaneous icons".

OKAY THEN.

If you ask me, this "complaint" is a load of {insert happy word}.

I disagree, this problem seems to be an unexpected side-effect, which affects gameplay. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't see this effect mentioned in the original thread.) IMO we should decide whether or not we want it this way, if so the changelogs should be updated that leaders no longer should have the IS_HERO macro and mainline campaigns should be changed accordingly. I already started to update the mainline campaigns when I noticed the effect on the gameplay.

Personally I don't miss the blue shields but I'm not sure whether others miss the visual indicator whether or not a unit is allowed to die.

[Jetrel]

I disagree, this problem seems to be an unexpected side-effect, which affects gameplay.

It's redundant information - this info should always be present in the scenario objectives window. This, and the fact that we've gotten along fine without the blue shield for most of wesnoth's history (or even the gold crown, for that matter), makes me think that "not having that information present on the map" is a very, very minor concern, and not something worth forestalling a large graphical improvement over.

But we don't have to have a win-lose outcome, so there's nothing to worry about.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't see this effect mentioned in the original thread.) IMO we should decide whether or not we want it this way

We are going to keep a silver crown overlaid on the gold crown.

It will be either a modified silver crown sitting on a possibly modified gold crown, or it might be a brand new overlay used only on units that are both leaders and which can't be left to die.

[Eleazar]

We are going to keep a silver crown overlaid on the gold crown.

It will be either a modified silver crown sitting on a possibly modified gold crown, or it might be a brand new overlay used only on units that are both leaders and which can't be left to die.

I don't think so.

Have you even looked at it? There's no way to overlap icons at this size so that both are apparent without covering something else up, like too much of the orb or the top 5-10% of the XP bar. None of these are acceptable.

A third style of crown for units that can recruit AND die, is probably in order. I'll look into that.

However there's no great need. The primary purpose of the hero icon is to distinguish key units that in many cases look similar to the rank-and-file. No one is going to casually let an allied leader die, because he thinks it's just an ordinary unit. In many (most?) cases letting that allied leader die does mean defeat, instantly or some turns later.

[Jetrel]

We are going to keep a silver crown overlaid on the gold crown.

It will be either a modified silver crown sitting on a possibly modified gold crown, or it might be a brand new overlay used only on units that are both leaders and which can't be left to die.

I don't think so.

Have you even looked at it? There's no way to overlap icons at this size so that both are apparent without covering something else up, like too much of the orb or the top 5-10% of the XP bar. None of these are acceptable.

Yes, I had looked at it, and ... well, see the attached...

It's not perfect, and I'm not pushing it as such - for one thing, although it does not overlap the HP bar, it looks like it does (because of similarity to the color of the HP bar's border). But I think as a proof of concept, as a "first draft" it works fairly well.

A third style of crown for units that can recruit AND die, is probably in order. I'll look into that.

I do like that idea; please do. In this case, just because I took a shot at "option A" doesn't mean I endorse it any more than the ones I didn't do myself/already.

However there's no great need. The primary purpose of the hero icon is to distinguish key units that in many cases look similar to the rank-and-file. No one is going to casually let an allied leader die, because he thinks it's just an ordinary unit. In many (most?) cases letting that allied leader die does mean defeat, instantly or some turns later.

Yep; you said it better than I did. I think turin's concerns are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[SkeletonCrew]

@Jetryl I think we're talking along each other
My point is the silver crown changes gameplay, do we want that change?
I say yes, but I did want to discuss that before starting to make the changes to the changelogs and the mainline WML. I don't want to change everything and then revert it since others feel it's an unintentional and unwanted change.

My personal preferences are golden crown for leaders and silver for not a leader and not allowed to die.

@eleazar if you do look at a third style would it be possible to have the third style overlapping the entire golden crown? Otherwise the code needs to have an option to hide the golden crown.

[edit]
Seems Jetryl posted something while I was typing
[/edit]

[turin]

The issue isn't that the crowns do not convey all possible information. I agree, that would be a very minor concern.

The issue is that they convey misleading information. If the golden crown is seen as a level-up of the silver crown (as having it replace the silver crown in units that both recruit and cannot die would indicate), then having allied leaders that have the golden crown makes it appear like they are not allowed to die, while they actually are. This problem is compounded by the fact that sometimes allied leaders are allowed to die, sometimes they are not.

I suppose we could just say "the golden crown means the unit can recruit, and obviously your own leader can't die, but it doesn't mean the unit in general can't die", and then say that since whether or not allied leaders are allowed to die, they're not on your team so they don't need a distinguishing mark... but I don't really like that solution.

[Eleazar]

Gold Crown: an leader. can recruit troops.
Silver Crown: an important henchman, whose survival is necessary for victory.

It's only misleading if it's misdefined.

[Sapient]

The shield does convey information about the intersection of these two groups (canrecruit(+vital?)). However, as you said, a gold crown should be a sufficient indication that "maybe you shouldn't let this person die, and thus check the objectives to be sure." The drawback of the shield is that is a fairly large visual indicator to provide, in this case, a fairly small information advantage, while the crowns-only strategy does free up some pixel-space for the sprite/terrain artwork surrounding your heroes.

[turin]

I'm definitely not saying to go back to the shields.

I won't make a big fuss about it, but IMHO it is worth it to have three labels.

[Eleazar]

Gold Crown: a leader. can recruit troops. survival is necessary for victory.
Gold & Silver Crown: a leader. can recruit troops.
Silver Crown: an important henchman. survival is necessary for victory.

I've added the middle crown to the trunk. I'm convinced such a icon can work, but weather this is a placeholder, or a final product— time will tell.

The new crown is more similar to the Recruiter Crown, because practically those units' function is more similar. If a new player doesn't notice the difference, little harm is done, however, the distinction is there for the savvy player, who forgets his objectives.

[Sapient]

I've added the middle crown to the trunk. I'm convinced such a icon can work, but weather this is a placeholder, or a final product— time will tell.

Looks nice to me. I see that you're still pushing for the bold style HP/XP bars, though. Sneaky.

[SkeletonCrew]

Gold Crown: a leader. can recruit troops. survival is necessary for victory.
Gold & Silver Crown: a leader. can recruit troops.
Silver Crown: an important henchman. survival is necessary for victory.

I've added the middle crown to the trunk. I'm convinced such a icon can work, but weather this is a placeholder, or a final product— time will tell.

Looks good I only guess we need a coder to resolve this issue http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 477#212477 which will now happen with the golden and silver crown. (atm I'm still busy with the last parts of the terrain branch, so I won't have time this week.)

[zookeeper]

Gold Crown: a leader. can recruit troops. survival is necessary for victory.
Gold & Silver Crown: a leader. can recruit troops.
Silver Crown: an important henchman. survival is necessary for victory.

The problem with this is that the silver crown unit is still more "important" than the gold & silver crown unit, which is IMO certainly a bit less than intuitive. The gold & silver crown unit can freely be left to die if one wants to, but instant defeat occurs if a unit with a plain silver crown is killed.

Also, should enemy leaders then get the gold crown or the gold & silver crown?

Another small problem with moving all the leader/hero indicators under the orb in the form of some kind of crown is that it's harder to see. The blue shield was very noticeable since there it was the only possible marker on the top right corner of the hex, and therefore easy to see. Is the silver crown considerably harder to see at a glance when it's positioned in a place that's already rather busy?

Disclaimer: I'm not saying these are big problems. I think I'd personally still slightly prefer, due to all these reasons, to have a distinct marker for units that can recruit, and an additional, different marker for all the units that are vital to the player (and thus have the player's leader get both, as well as any allied leaders that must not die).

[Eleazar]

Gold Crown: a leader. can recruit troops. survival is necessary for victory for their side.
Gold & Silver Crown: a leader. can recruit troops.
Silver Crown: an important henchman. survival is necessary for victory for their side.

The problem with this is that the silver crown unit is still more "important" than the gold & silver crown unit, which is IMO certainly a bit less than intuitive. The gold & silver crown unit can freely be left to die if one wants to, but instant defeat occurs if a unit with a plain silver crown is killed.

Maybe the silver is more important for avoiding defeat, but the gold&silver is more important for victory. Since a good player would generally avoid getting all these units killed regardless of instant defeat, i considered the "recruiter" aspect more important to emphasize. And since the player will see expendable leaders far less frequently than the other two types, i gave them the less distinct crown.

Also, should enemy leaders then get the gold crown or the gold & silver crown?

Enemy leaders should generally keep the gold crown, see clarified definition. I believe this is the most obvious course.

Another small problem with moving all the leader/hero indicators under the orb in the form of some kind of crown is that it's harder to see. The blue shield was very noticeable since there it was the only possible marker on the top right corner of the hex, and therefore easy to see. Is the silver crown considerably harder to see at a glance when it's positioned in a place that's already rather busy?

Smaller is only a problem if it's actually harder to see. Since you have the H/XP bars and orb pointing out it's location, it's easy to find. If it really needs help we could add another pixel of height at the expense of the H/XP bars.