Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

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SlowThinker
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Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by SlowThinker »

It looks by the interpretation of Posting Guidelines by head moderator one cannot reply to moderators/developers:
  1. every moderator's post is a moderator's action:
    [url=http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=518327#p518327]in this thread[/url] shadowmaster wrote:Every moderator post (posting being an action just like deleting posts or locking topics) counts as a moderator action for the purpose of the Posting Guidelines, point 4a.
  2. moderator's posts cannot be debated:
    [url=http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=531176#p531176]in this thread[/url] shadowmaster wrote:Complaining, arguing, debating, same thing as far as I am concerned since all of them involve dismissing or questioning one or more moderators’ advice or requirement(s) to various degrees.
(not that I concur shadowmaster's interpretation of Posting Guidelines, but I think my opinion in this point doesn't matter)
Thank you for any explanation.

-----------------------------
Had both those threads to be really closed? This topic is related to them and I believe it would be better not to have to start a new thread ...
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by Drakefriend »

I would think that this effectively means actions performed in the role of moderator/developer, as in comitting new artwork. locking a topic, or a warning about an impending lock. It does certainly not include that a word of the devs or mods automaticaly ending all discussion on topic. You can certainly critic their art of they are in the open part (and for the closed parts, you only need to be Regular), as long as you do it in a good way, take part in debates, and occasionally you can get them to change their mind (I think). It means that they ultimately have the last word, and that they don't have to do everything someone wants them to do, as they are volunteers who invest a lot of time and work herein. I think the main reason is to keep trolls from ordering to make bad changes, and then complaining about the evil modarator nazis locking there thr3ad!!!!1!
And even if the moderators and developers made themselves infallible, they are not tyrants and use this power only when necessary.
Last edited by Drakefriend on June 18th, 2012, 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SlowThinker
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by SlowThinker »

Drakefriend wrote:I would think that this means actions performed in the role of moderator/developer, as in comitting new artwork or locking a topic.
I don't think so. Read that thread I linked, especially this post: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 14#p518314
Gambit clearly said he didn't act as a moderator, and still shadowmaster claimed that any Gambit's post must be taken as a "moderator's action".
It does certainly not include that a word of the devs or mods automaticly ending all discussion on topic.
This is clear to me. But the shadowmaster's position looks like you can continue to debate the topic, except you must not argue moderator's/dev's posts.
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by Crendgrim »

Let me quote something from the very post you linked to:
Gambit wrote:Though, as a moderator, I think any advice about forum behavior/usage ought be heeded.
I do not really want to discuss that old thread here again (you know that metathreading is bad, right? Also I do not want to stir up that old topic again, so that it hopefully vanishes from memory). However, as you are clearly referring to it, let me say this:
Gambit told him that his tone was inadequate (to say the least), and that was some advice about forum behavior. So, it probably was meant as a "you did this wrong, and I tell you this". If you do not agree with how he did it, it clearly falls under the Posting Guidelines point 4a; as shadowmaster said: whether or not the post was green.

What the PG 4a is supposed to do is to keep the forums free from unnecessary noise, so discussions about moderator actions (that is also advice, as shadowmaster pointed out) are not polluting the forums. If I see it correctly, the intention of that guideline was to prevent threads exactly like this one from popping up.
As this thread seems not to be about complaining in the first place, but rather about how to understand the PGs, I won't lock it right now; however, I will if it emerges into a discussion about old matters.

Coming to the statement of this thread, it is plainly wrong. As Drakefriend aptly pointed out: It is not forbidden to reply to developers or moderators (what sense would that make?), but it is forbidden to discuss their moderating actions in public. So, your final statement is almost right:
SlowThinker wrote:This is clear to me. But the shadowmaster's position looks like you can continue to debate the topic, except you must not argue moderator's/dev's posts.
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by Iris »

Why does this exist instead of a PM in my inbox?

Or more specifically, how is this not meta-threading with your deliberate allusion to those two instances and the cute rhetorical question at the bottom of the OP? And why do you insist on not doing the most sane thing (that is, sending a PM) in order to continue discussing a locked or abandoned topic with a user who just happens to be a moderator?
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by SlowThinker »

Crendgrim, thank you for the effort, but you didn't clarify things to me: shadowmaster didn't talk about "moderator's actions and advices" but about "every moderator post".
But I don't insist that we must debate that old thread now:

I said two statements (1. every moderator's post is a moderator's action. 2. moderator's posts cannot be debated) and I explained where I deduced these statements from. We don't have to debate whether my deduction was correct or wrong, but it should be explained whether point 1. is present routine of moderators (I suppose point 2. is) and if not then what is present routine of moderators.

Related question:
Why point 4a doesn't conform to the moderators' routine (point 2.)? Shouldn't point 4a be changed so that it is more clear?

shadowmaster wrote:Why does this exist instead of a PM in my inbox?
Because this is not an issue between me and you. More people may want to know the answer to my question. Also more people may want to respond (you can see they did) and may come with some good ideas (e.g. may come with a better wording of point 4a).
shadowmaster wrote:Or more specifically, how is this not meta-threading with your deliberate allusion to those two instances and the cute rhetorical question at the bottom of the OP?
Anyone can see that this topic is only related to topics discussed in both threads. (Also notice if only one of those two threads existed then this thread could never originate.)

Another point is you didn't say why you locked that thread. Look how Sapient clearly explained in this thread that none can start a thread about WML architecture.
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by lipk »

I'm certainly not the proper person, but... are we lawyers or what? Common sense is absolutely enough to decide when/what to reply to a moderator. Actually, I have been getting by pretty well without ever reading the Posting Guidelines. This nitpick is only good to make shadowmaster annoyed (whether is that a positive thing or not is an entirely different debate, though :wink: )
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by Elvish_Hunter »

SlowThinker wrote:Another point is you didn't say why you locked that thread. Look how Sapient clearly explained in this thread that none can start a thread about WML architecture.
The point of the lock was not about the WML architecture. In that case, I feel that moving or splitting it to the Coder's Corner may have been enough.
The problem was that the discusion derailed from the original topic, and transformed itself in a sort-of battle between you and pyrophorus.
Also, meta-threading ahead.
lipk wrote:Common sense is absolutely enough to decide when/what to reply to a moderator.
In my case, when I act as a moderator I write in green and bold (or red and bold, in case of locks and soft-locks). And in case that I make an incorrect decision (it may happen), I'm available to revert it. However, discussing a moderator's decision in the open forum only attracts unuseful noise: this is the reason why appeals should be done via PM.
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by SlowThinker »

lipk wrote:I'm certainly not the proper person, but... are we lawyers or what? Common sense is absolutely enough to decide when/what to reply to a moderator.
I disagree.
For example common sense is: if a moderator criticizes my behaviour not by PM but in a thread, and I think his critique is not correct, then I answer in that thread.
So Posting Guidelines are needed, at least with present moderators' policy, where involvement of moderators is rather intense.

And if Posting Guidelines are confusing, then it only unnecessarily augments the amount of moderator's involvement.
(I let besides a theory that moderators become moderators because they like to involve (and maybe to show their power) :wink: )

edit:
this is close to meta-threading
Elvish_Hunter wrote:The point of the lock was not about the WML architecture.
But then the explanation was not precise. So it only supports my point that reasons of locks should be given and should be clear.

The problem was that the discusion derailed from the original topic
I believe Sapient's reason was different (in fact he didn't accept in past I split the off-topic part), but I don't want to cultivate your meta-threading :wink:
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Re: Is replying to moderators/developpers forbidden?

Post by artisticdude »

SlowThinker wrote:(I let besides a theory that moderators become moderators because they like to involve (and maybe to show their power) :wink: )
That's quite enough cute little insinuations from you for today, thank you. You're in absolutely no position whatsoever to judge the motives of our moderation team, and you're certainly not helping your case by making these snide remarks.


I've had enough of all this rhetoric and political crap, which seems to be the premise of this entire topic. It all boils down to this:
SlowThinker wrote:For example common sense is: if a moderator criticizes my behaviour not by PM but in a thread, and I think his critique is not correct, then I answer in that thread.
Someone "critiquing" you and telling you are two completely different things. "Critiquing" implies suggestion. Telling implies commanding. When a moderator tells you that you are out of line for whatever reason or takes any action against you, then if you have any doubts about why you are out of line or why that action was taken against you, you should PM the moderator in question for clarification. Under no circumstances should you ever start a debate, complaint, argument or request for clarification about a moderator's decision in public, like you chose to do in the OP of this very thread. Indeed, the fact that this meta-thread exists is in itself a public complaint/debate against shadowmaster's decision to lock your last thread.

As Elvish_Hunter has already explained, Sapient's decision to lock your "WML Architecture" thread was completely justified. Regardless of your original intentions, however noble, when the thread starts going completely off-topic and people start slinging mud at each other in violation of point 1b of the Posting Guidelines, that's quite enough to warrant a lock. Had Sapient not done so, I would have locked it myself. This point is not open to debate.
SlowThinker wrote:
Elvish_Hunter wrote:The point of the lock was not about the WML architecture.
But then the explanation was not precise. So it only supports my point that reasons of locks should be given and should be clear.
The reason for the lock was given, and it was perfectly clear. Sapient even quoted point 1b of the Posting Guidelines.


I believe I have addressed all the points raised in the OP. As such, I am now locking this meta-thread. Do not attempt to create yet another meta-thread, or it will be deleted on sight.
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