Age of Heroes balance.

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
Hejnewar
Posts: 74
Joined: September 17th, 2016, 11:01 am

Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Hejnewar » October 20th, 2019, 9:01 pm

So I have been working on this project for a little while and I think it's time to show results.
To avoid interference with other eras all proposed changes are only touching gold cost of units.

So let's begin.

Drakes:
Spoiler:
Knalgan Alliance:
Spoiler:
Loyalists:
Spoiler:
Northerners:
Spoiler:
Rebels:
Spoiler:
Undead:
Spoiler:
Cost of Red Mage changed from 40 to 35
Cost of White Mage changed from 40 to 33

Dunefolk units aren't here because I plan on addressing them in one of thier own topics later on.
Love it (yay!), hate it, whatever just show support in making this game better (and let me learn from my mistakes). (Yay! 8) )

Update:
Prices were updated. I decided to not touch goblins since i couldn't predict ai behavior.
Also no one noticed that drakes cost was super low. It should be 38 instead of 28. Fixed now.
Last edited by Hejnewar on November 16th, 2019, 4:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
Lordlewis
Posts: 311
Joined: July 20th, 2016, 11:15 am
Location: All around, every where. All in one place yet I'm there.-Lordlewis

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Lordlewis » October 20th, 2019, 9:13 pm

Most of these I would agree with, like the Berserker (which is mostly a throw away unit). A few units like the Sky Drake and Fire Drake I'm not sure if I agree with, I feel like the prices you made should be swapped almost. Sky Drake isn't as good as Fire Drake but it seems the only thing keeping him more expensive is his MP and marksman. The Goblins, I'm not sure about keeping them at the price of 9, seems too small and they were already at a cheap price for a level 1, I'd say 10 at minimum personally, and maybe the impaler at 11 because of damage (and the rouser's leadership doesn't do too much). All of the increased prices you made I would agree with so far.
Gold is great!
Swat them bugs!

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by ghype » October 20th, 2019, 9:29 pm

Considering the balancing you did in the Dunefolk Rework, i am fully confident in your proposals.

Did you however took in account how these changes might impact mainline campaigns?
Are there any where you can recruit any of the units you suggested changes to?

User avatar
EarthCake
Posts: 354
Joined: March 29th, 2019, 1:57 pm
Location: Braavosi

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by EarthCake » October 20th, 2019, 10:40 pm

ghype wrote:
October 20th, 2019, 9:29 pm
Are there any where you can recruit any of the units you suggested changes to?
Many AI's recruit level 2 units in mainline campaigns, in NR especially.

I don't agree with troll changes; they are still great units.

User avatar
Krogen
Posts: 199
Joined: January 1st, 2013, 3:43 pm

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Krogen » October 21st, 2019, 1:14 am

It would be hard to judge these changes specifically, but i definitely support the idea of some balance over level 2.
The most important thing for AoH in my opinion is to encourage players to mix level 1 and level 2 units. If balanced with care, that would open a whole new level of opportunities and many players might become interested in it.
I hope that new cost for Steelclad finally makes people realise just how ridicilously overpowered that unit line is above level 1. That's the only one where i'm confident that the unit itself should be changed, not (just) the price. Not necessarily because of the PvP element, but because it basically breaks every game type where the players face the AI. (Mobility doesn't make that much of a difference there. I think soon i'll go into detail somewhere else why that unit should take a heavy nerf.)
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4060
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Pentarctagon » October 21st, 2019, 1:27 am

I think the mainline campaigns do need to be checked, especially for units that had a large cost change relatively speaking. The cost reductions to the goblin units, for example, could significantly change what the AI recruits if there are scenarios where they are available instead of the level 0 goblins (particularly since the level 0 unit also costs 9 gold).
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
Hejnewar
Posts: 74
Joined: September 17th, 2016, 11:01 am

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Hejnewar » October 22nd, 2019, 8:44 am

Sky Drake - I will check this unit again, I might have missed something.

Goblins - I was thinking about 10 it actually might be better price. Main thing that is keeping goblins down is there negative trait although in this case you have 33% chance on not getting one (because increasing xp needed to lvl up is doing nothing), at the same time 33% of your goblins on average will be slow with only 4 mp, that will make rushing less consistent and getting villages harder.

Trolls - I personally don't think that they are that good. Regeneration is nice but in AoH there are units that can deal enough damage so that this special is way less useful than in usual 1v1 where most units are L1.

Steelclad - Looking forward to it. ;)

AI and campaigns - If everything will go well there might be no need to change anything since changes will be MP only.

Add-on - I wanted to put it on 1.15 but I have technical problems with it... 2/6 factions doesnt even work. I should've put it on 1.14 while i had the chance..

Sorry for late response, I have little time and am still struggling with that addon..

Update:
I finally managed to make this addon work.. AoH balance era is live on 1.15.

User avatar
Krogen
Posts: 199
Joined: January 1st, 2013, 3:43 pm

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Krogen » October 23rd, 2019, 12:57 am

Orcish Warrior/Warlord slowly surpasses the Troll line in terms of stats.
Goblin gold costs affecting campaigns... i'm not so sure about this. Dealing with one or two more squishy goblins can really be such an issue?
I posted my long rant about the Steelclad.
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by ghype » October 23rd, 2019, 8:26 am

Hejnewar wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 8:44 am
AI and campaigns - If everything will go well there might be no need to change anything since changes will be MP only.
If your changes are mp only, then there is nothing to worry about?
It also would be the easiest solution.

Suppose the devs have to aggree with seperate balance for sp/mp though.

User avatar
Hejnewar
Posts: 74
Joined: September 17th, 2016, 11:01 am

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Hejnewar » October 23rd, 2019, 11:49 am

Krogen: I don't think that one change could affect campaigns much, however I can't neglect that many / big changes can have snowball effect.

ghype: I don't think there is anything to worry about in that case.
Balance of campaigns is in my opinion one of the most limiting factors when it comes to balancing multiplayer just because for many campaigns are more important than multiplayer, avoiding making changes in them will not only remove this factor but also will greatly limit work that needs to be done every time changes are made.

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by ghype » October 23rd, 2019, 3:49 pm

I am not the one you have to convince though.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4060
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Pentarctagon » October 23rd, 2019, 11:56 pm

The same unit having different stats in MP vs campaigns will be a tough sell, I'd guess. If you can provide a list of the units' IDs though, I should be able to search through the campaigns fairly quickly to see if any of them turn up.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
Hejnewar
Posts: 74
Joined: September 17th, 2016, 11:01 am

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Hejnewar » October 24th, 2019, 6:11 am

Can't I just use #ifdef MULTIPLAYER? It will overwrite cost of unit this way keeping original cost in SP.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4060
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Pentarctagon » October 24th, 2019, 6:48 am

The best way to get a definite answer would be to ask in the Discord or IRC development channel.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

Soliton
Site Administrator
Posts: 1594
Joined: April 5th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Age of Heroes balance.

Post by Soliton » October 27th, 2019, 6:03 pm

I suggest not worrying about single player balance too much. I don’t think it’s generally that precise to begin with and there is plenty of ways to fix any issues that should arise besides tweaking unit stats. We definitely don’t want separate sp and mp stats.

So this looks interesting but I would appreciate some comments on the reason for the changes. For example why the Lieutenant should be 7 gold cheaper.

Another thing I don’t quite understand is why units like the Troll and Troll Rocklobber should have different costs since they come from the same base unit. If such units are not worth the same I think other stats need to be adjusted so that they are. There might be some argument for level "2.5" units like the Deathblade but even there I think they should be balanced by not being able to advance further.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

Post Reply