The most unfair matchups?
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The most unfair matchups?
One of the aims of Wesnoth multiplayer is to make it so that given any reasonable map, and any two random factions from the default era, either side has a reasonable chance of winning if controlled by a skilled player.
The intent of this thread is to discuss unfair matchups -- matchups between factions where one faction will almost always win. This could include the possibility of a single faction simply being overpowered and usually winning against all other factions.
Please respond by stating the matchups that you think are most unfair, a description of why it's unfair, and possibly a proposal of how it could be fixed.
Version referenced can be either 0.8.11 or CVS, but if it's important, please be explicit about which.
David
The intent of this thread is to discuss unfair matchups -- matchups between factions where one faction will almost always win. This could include the possibility of a single faction simply being overpowered and usually winning against all other factions.
Please respond by stating the matchups that you think are most unfair, a description of why it's unfair, and possibly a proposal of how it could be fixed.
Version referenced can be either 0.8.11 or CVS, but if it's important, please be explicit about which.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Undead vs Loyalists
The Undead have very good resistance against units that depend upon piercing and a lesser degree blade. This consists of
Skeleton
Skeleton Archer
Ghoul (lesser resistance)
Ghost
They a few speciality units in Necromancer, Bats & Zombies but the core of their units are going to involve Skeleton and Ghosts regardless.
The majority of the Loyalists units are dependent upon pierce and blade. These are,
Spearman
Fencer
Horseman
Bowman
Cavalry
They do have specialists in Heavy Infantry and Mage but they their own limitations. The Heavy Infantry lack mobility and the Mage is too weak to be a unit left on its own.
The core units that make up Undead have an advantage by default over the core loyalists units and do not have alternatives to counter.
The Undead have very good resistance against units that depend upon piercing and a lesser degree blade. This consists of
Skeleton
Skeleton Archer
Ghoul (lesser resistance)
Ghost
They a few speciality units in Necromancer, Bats & Zombies but the core of their units are going to involve Skeleton and Ghosts regardless.
The majority of the Loyalists units are dependent upon pierce and blade. These are,
Spearman
Fencer
Horseman
Bowman
Cavalry
They do have specialists in Heavy Infantry and Mage but they their own limitations. The Heavy Infantry lack mobility and the Mage is too weak to be a unit left on its own.
The core units that make up Undead have an advantage by default over the core loyalists units and do not have alternatives to counter.
I dunno - I always thought the undead were disadvantaged against loyalists.Piercing is terrible against undead, BUT blade is alright, and piercing is even ok against certain undead, such as dark adepts, ghouls and walking corpses.
If Loyalists are really caught off-guard, they can get hammered, but if the loyalists hire a bunch of heavy-infantry, and a bunch of mages (along with a few horsemen), they can do quite well. In fact, a few cavalrymen work well, too - cavalry are resistant to most damage that undead would do to them.
Fencers are good for mopping up the walking corpses (or the cavalrymen can do that).
As soon as the loyalists level a mage into a white mage, they have a very strong advantage ... perhaps an unfair one. Even besides that, though, level-1 mages blow ghosts and bats out of the air, and ghosts are one of the few units that could really give loyalists trouble.
Cavalry and horsemen can deal a lot of damage to enemy bats and ghosts, if they catch them (which they often can). If the two fight, the ghosts may lose, and the bats very likely will, one-on-one.
Dark adepts could really hurt the heavy infantry, but that's why you have the cavalry/horsemen/fencers along.
It basically boils down to: Undead have an advantage in resource acquisition, though if the loyalist plays his cards right, not a great one. Loyalists, if and when they get a holy attack, have a severe advantage in combat capability - even a draug can get torn to bits in one turn by a level-2 white mage.
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Breeblebox
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Knaglans vs Anyone with water units.
Seriously, if you want a challenge, play as Knaglan on any map that has even a small amount of strategically important water. I don't necessarily think the Knaglan's are the problem, just that the new mermen units particularly are an amazing deal.
Perhaps a slight price increase? 13->14 for the Hunter might be worth a try. I can't comment on the Naga, but it seems they are significantly less powerful given the Hunter's ranged attack.
Just a thought...
Seriously, if you want a challenge, play as Knaglan on any map that has even a small amount of strategically important water. I don't necessarily think the Knaglan's are the problem, just that the new mermen units particularly are an amazing deal.
Perhaps a slight price increase? 13->14 for the Hunter might be worth a try. I can't comment on the Naga, but it seems they are significantly less powerful given the Hunter's ranged attack.
Just a thought...
For me is hard to fight against drakes with knalgan. May be is just because I haven't see the good tactic.
The problem I see is the 'cazador furtivo' --> ¿***** hunter? He has 20% of defense agaisnt sacred but none agaisnt fire. May be not 20% but 10% will be nice.
I'm using 0.8.11
The problem I see is the 'cazador furtivo' --> ¿***** hunter? He has 20% of defense agaisnt sacred but none agaisnt fire. May be not 20% but 10% will be nice.
I'm using 0.8.11
JID: fromoze@jabberes.org
Undead vs knaglan.. there is no chance for the undead.. Thugs are 13 gold and decimate skeletons and adepts and corpses and ghouls and bats.. Ulfserkers are 18 gold and decimate ghosts, adepts, bats, corpses.
Dwarvish fighters are 17 gold and decimate every unit undead has besides a ghost.
Play a game vs an undead player as knaglan and just mass thugs and an effective amount of berzerks and the undead will lose.
If you disagree go on mp and show me..
Dwarvish fighters are 17 gold and decimate every unit undead has besides a ghost.
Play a game vs an undead player as knaglan and just mass thugs and an effective amount of berzerks and the undead will lose.
If you disagree go on mp and show me..
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Elvish_Pillager
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Does this lose against any faction?ShrinK wrote:Play a game vs an undead player as knaglan and just mass thugs and an effective amount of berzerks and the undead will lose.
(I think Undead could fight it with Bats, Skeletons, and Adepts...)
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
I don't know about you guys but, Undead vs Loyalists or Rebels almost always results in a undead loss. Sure they only have two units to defend against them, but really, thats all they need. I call it the ZDZ strategy after ZDZ ONLY bought mages to go against an undead, and won pretty handily. Mages, with 70% hit, and ridiculous undead damage wipes out any undead unit. Ghosts melt against mages, as do almost every other unit. H. Infantry provides blocking for your weak mages. Between the two of them, the undead are at a extreme disadvantage and for the most part lose. For rebels, woses play a similar role... or in a pinch fighters. Having a horseman around is also helpful, to skewer any pesky bats.
If anything I think players should pity Undead, NOT the other way around.
If anything I think players should pity Undead, NOT the other way around.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Why does fire hurt Ghosts so much? I don't see any realism-based reason, and it's clearly bad for gameplay...
For realism: A spectre floats through the wall of a grand throne room in the king's palace and floats towards the throne. "Kill it!" shouts the king. His men-at-arms sieze their weapons, but whenever they swing, their weapons only pass through the spirit, inflicting minor damage. Suddenly, in the chaos, one of the candles set on a table nearby is knocked over and falls on the ghost. "I'm melting!" it cries as it fades away.
Seriously, why would fire do any more damage than any other type of physical weapon?
For realism: A spectre floats through the wall of a grand throne room in the king's palace and floats towards the throne. "Kill it!" shouts the king. His men-at-arms sieze their weapons, but whenever they swing, their weapons only pass through the spirit, inflicting minor damage. Suddenly, in the chaos, one of the candles set on a table nearby is knocked over and falls on the ghost. "I'm melting!" it cries as it fades away.
Seriously, why would fire do any more damage than any other type of physical weapon?
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Since units have been changing so much recently, I've been playing current CVS mostly 1vs1 against the AI on small maps, especially Charge. Since the AI is weak, absolute results against the AI make no sense. One therefore needs symmetric matchups (ie. play X vs AI playing Y then reverse roles and play Y vs the AI's X), and compare the X/Y and Y/X matchups to see if they are similar.
I can beat the AI consistently, usually around turn 10-14 in Charge, although being second player adds 2-4 turns to how long it takes to do so. However, I have struggled playing Rebels against AI Northeners when playing second. All other matchups seem balanced (ie. I can win about as quickly with X vs Y as with Y vs X), modulo the second player disadvantage.
Not sure if these results carry over for large maps, or if the AI has specific weak spots which influence these results in a non-obvious way.
I can beat the AI consistently, usually around turn 10-14 in Charge, although being second player adds 2-4 turns to how long it takes to do so. However, I have struggled playing Rebels against AI Northeners when playing second. All other matchups seem balanced (ie. I can win about as quickly with X vs Y as with Y vs X), modulo the second player disadvantage.
Not sure if these results carry over for large maps, or if the AI has specific weak spots which influence these results in a non-obvious way.
This quote is not attributable to Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.
Victory points
This is just a random idea, but would it be dififcult to have a victory counter or something? so that if there are two people each with 10 wins wont be teamed up against two people with no wins. Or something like this. That way- people could choses to be teamed up fairly. (this might not have anything to do with the discussion but i thought it was a good idea)
lol.. maybe u missed my whole sentence on the part that thugs do IMPACT damage?? Skeletons are out of the picture.Elvish Pillager wrote:Does this lose against any faction?ShrinK wrote:Play a game vs an undead player as knaglan and just mass thugs and an effective amount of berzerks and the undead will lose.
(I think Undead could fight it with Bats, Skeletons, and Adepts...)
Ulfserkers kill adepts and ghosts and corpses and bats...
Reading back in Jetryl said it is true, that the Loyalists do have some good advantages over undead. Thinking on it a bit more the problem is really with how the factions are balanced with resistances and weapon distributions. Undead are too focused as being resistant to pierce and highly vulnerable to impact. What other options does an undead player have?
You have Corpses, Necromancers, Ghosts and Ghouls. Each of these units is really a speciality unit that does not fit well into a frontline. They do have extreme vulnerabilities to average units so you have to use skeletons which are easily countered by impact weapons. It makes tactical thinking to simple.
There should be some more diversity in each of the factions, each can have several more specialized frontline units but it requires other factions to work harder to exploit weaknesses.
Two suggestions,
For the undead, I said that they need another frontline unit. What about human cultists? Maybe not as good as regular soldier but good enough alternative to always using a skeleton.
For the knalgan, instead of a Dwarf fighters getting Axes and Hammers, make them two seperate units. Each can throw their weapon like a skirmisher so they have two types of attacks. The Dwarf fighter stops being a unit you use in all situations to a little more specialized.
I am saying that these are good ideas but I do think that factions do need more depth in their selection to increase the options players have fighting different factions. You should not always expect to see the unit distributions when you fight the same factions everytime.
You have Corpses, Necromancers, Ghosts and Ghouls. Each of these units is really a speciality unit that does not fit well into a frontline. They do have extreme vulnerabilities to average units so you have to use skeletons which are easily countered by impact weapons. It makes tactical thinking to simple.
There should be some more diversity in each of the factions, each can have several more specialized frontline units but it requires other factions to work harder to exploit weaknesses.
Two suggestions,
For the undead, I said that they need another frontline unit. What about human cultists? Maybe not as good as regular soldier but good enough alternative to always using a skeleton.
For the knalgan, instead of a Dwarf fighters getting Axes and Hammers, make them two seperate units. Each can throw their weapon like a skirmisher so they have two types of attacks. The Dwarf fighter stops being a unit you use in all situations to a little more specialized.
I am saying that these are good ideas but I do think that factions do need more depth in their selection to increase the options players have fighting different factions. You should not always expect to see the unit distributions when you fight the same factions everytime.