Main Factions Balance

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ForPeace
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by ForPeace » June 13th, 2019, 10:29 am

@sergey I think the interface is the secondary thing at the moment. We need an era to test. I am for introducing the changes proposed by Cackfiend - in my opinion they have the highest value - proposed by the best Wesnoth players at that time. I can volunteer to play some test games - my ladder elo is 1855.
Cackfiend wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 9:34 pm
sergey wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 9:28 pm
Do you mean that player must have a high rating if he wants to discuss the balance? What rating is sufficient in your point of view?

Earlier in this thread Hejnewar said that it makes sense to consider only skilled players when comparing factions vs faction win ratio. A rough estimate of appropriate players was above 1800 points. The lower rating we accept the more samples we will consider, and more samples is better for statistics. However, what is the sufficient minimum rating in your opinion? Also it may make sense to analyze games where both players have relatively similar rating. Do you agree with that and what rating difference would you suggest?
Any player can discuss balance, however only informed players will have much weight in their opinion. 1800+ is a good number IMO.
@Crimson_Conure Thank you for putting effort into your post, but if you want your ideas to really help, gain some experience playing with some veterans beforehand.
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I used to play a lot of 1v1 Wesnoth, especially ladder games - here's my profile.
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sergey
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by sergey » June 13th, 2019, 10:45 am

Heads up for those who are interested. I have contacted with person who owns the ladder database. I will provide more info when I will get the database copy and perform some calculations. Though it is expected to take some time.
Cackfiend wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 2:48 am
sergey, we will work on this together via pms :)
Do you want to move the whole conversation regarding the era development to PM or just implementation details? I think it may be interesting for people to follow how it goes.
Cackfiend wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:06 pm
Footpad: Slashing melee instead of Bludgeoning (also can unnerf his melee to be 5-2 again. It would be nice if we could get the graphic changed for it too.
Regarding the exact weapon that the unit will use. I think that sword is not suitable, since sword is an expensive weapon that footpad probably can't afford. Dagger could work, but lvl 2 and lvl 3 advancements have only 2 attacks with a relatively high damage. Which means they use a more heavy weapon that deals more damage and requires more time to use comparing to dagger. I think what suits here is an axe. For the lvl 1 unit it will be a wood chopping type of axe, which is a relatively simple/cheap weapon that suits the footpad. Axe may be used in a household, nobody will notice that the footpad has bad intentions while he is walking with an axe and full pockets of stones. So, he is still a petty criminal which corresponds to it current description. Also it implies his connections with dwarves, since dwarves like axes. Footpad could have a dwarf mate who gave him the axe on his birthday and taught how to use it. Outlaws and dwarves cooperate, anyone knows that. At lvl 3 the weapon could be switched to a battle axe. People who want to draw an axeman footpad are welcome :D
ForPeace wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 10:29 am
@sergey I think the interface is the secondary thing at the moment.
ForPeace yes it is secondary :) Though people who like to draw can get some fun. Also this unit can be used in some campaign. I agree that we don't want a lot of discussions about the interface in this topic, since it is not related to the balance itself.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare

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Cackfiend
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 13th, 2019, 3:02 pm

sergey, just the development can be in pms. It's fine if people want to continue this conversation here, of course.

an axe is fine for the footpad. im not concerned about the graphic for now
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Cackfiend
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 13th, 2019, 3:15 pm

Crimson_Conure wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 7:18 am
According to the statistic that undead has a low win rate, I would say it definitely needs a balance.

Undead seems way too weak for sure though.

yet drake is the only faction that undead has a significant/organic chance against

Undead is really bad but fair against drakes.

(I think drake is the only faction that undead has a chance against actually)

However undead are really underpowered due to their extremely low health and things like that.

From strongest to weakest faction, it is... Loyalists -> Northerners -> Rebels -> Drakes -> Knalgan -> Undead
im beginning to think that you think that Undead aren't very good :P


If you'd like we can play some games and I will teach you a clinic on how to play undead correctly
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Xalzar
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Xalzar » June 13th, 2019, 3:58 pm

@Cackfiend: speaking of balance proposals, I'd suggest increasing the Drake Glider defense by 10% on all terrains. It's just so squishy currently. :augh:
Footpad: Slashing melee instead of Bludgeoning (also can unnerf his melee to be 5-2 again.
I don't know about that, it seems it would step too much on the toes of the Thief, by having a slightly less powerful blade attack (ignoring the backstab bonus which normally is applicable only a few times against good opponents) but more movement and a ranged attack. IMO the Thief is mainly a cheap source of blade damage, we cannot take that away from him. :hmm:

P.S.: the first proposal is a joke inspired by Cackfiend's signature...ssssh! :P

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Cackfiend
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 13th, 2019, 4:01 pm

Xalzar wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 3:58 pm
@Cackfiend: speaking of balance proposals, I'd suggest increasing the Drake Glider defense by 10% on all terrains. It's just so squishy currently. :augh:
Footpad: Slashing melee instead of Bludgeoning (also can unnerf his melee to be 5-2 again.
I don't know about that, it seems it would step too much on the toes of the Thief, by having a slightly less powerful blade attack (ignoring the backstab bonus which normally is applicable only a few times against good opponents) but more movement and a ranged attack. IMO the Thief is mainly a cheap source of blade damage, we cannot take that away from him. :hmm:

P.S.: the first proposal is a joke inspired by Cackfiend's signature...ssssh! :P

I was actually thinking Gliders need 70% defense in all hexes. Im glad someone agrees.



I definitely need to see it in action. Footpads are just too good versus undead. That's why it will be tested thoroughly before adopting to become the official ladder era.

Thief still has 3 attacks, backstab, and low xp requirement. and 1 gp cheaper.
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Hejnewar
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Hejnewar » June 13th, 2019, 4:35 pm

Cackfiend wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 10:05 pm
Little miscommunication here. Hardy would be something that all Dwarves have and would not take up a trait spot. Healthy is already a mostly useless trait in most matchups. When it was introduced to the game it nerfed Dwarves heavily. The goal here is to make those fat 4mp dudes better.
Hmm then this is pure buff. But I disagree with healthy being bad trait. In comparison to resilient, healthy from start gives +2hp so you only need to regenerate 3 hp from it to make it equal to it, dwarfs usually doesnt die in one turn during defense in one turn.

I of course was talking about 1v1 only.
Because spearman is too strong vs drakes, mostly. Also it is the best unit.
Grunt is better in my opinnion. Not a huge difference but still.
Ghost should still win vs Ulf during day. It's been a long time but I believe the change would make it so that that dont get stomped by Ulf during dusk/dawn
This is still a big shift from 2 turns of safety to 4 turns of safety for ghosts. This might actually lead to undead attacking faster and retreating later, ulf won't scare them enough and since ulf is the only reliable thing that can deal with ghosts...
Around the time orc archers were heavily buffed to 6-3 from 5-3 ranged. Many of us thought it was a bad decision. I still do.
And I dont, they will be much weaker than any other archer, while still used as an counter unit they will lose their primary damage source which might lead to just not recruiting orcish archers. That means things like cavs will be much better vs orc. Drakes will have a bit better time but also any ranged unit will be happy to see this since if needed they will take a bit less damage. I would recommend to refrain from changing faction that has the best balance in whole default era.

I still think that Klanga changes will push people towards hodor.
ForPeace wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 10:29 am
I am for introducing the changes proposed by Cackfiend - in my opinion they have the highest value - proposed by the best Wesnoth players at that time.
All of them are taken from the wesnoth ladder forum from several years ago. To me they dont have any more value than any other changes.

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Cackfiend
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm

I understand your concerns, and some of them might hold up. That is why the first version of the Ladder Era will be a test version to see how it goes. Give me your informed opinion after you have experienced the changes and I will listen.

It sounds like you didnt play all those years ago at Wesnoth's peak. Many changes were made to mainline units that the competitive players did not like. Cavalry movement, Orc Archer buff, Footpad nerf, etc. Having played both sides of the changes we clearly had a more informed opinion about them than someone who only played after the changes.
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Hejnewar
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Hejnewar » June 13th, 2019, 5:11 pm

Cackfiend wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm
I understand your concerns, and some of them might hold up. That is why the first version of the Ladder Era will be a test version to see how it goes. Give me your informed opinion after you have experienced the changes and I will listen.

It sounds like you didnt play all those years ago at Wesnoth's peak. Many changes were made to mainline units that the competitive players did not like. Cavalry movement, Orc Archer buff, Footpad nerf, etc. Having played both sides of the changes we clearly had a more informed opinion about them than someone who only played after the changes.
I started to play this game almost 10 years ago. Looking at current pro players, they doesn't like changes either so i guess some things just doesn't change.

About 5 years ago I started to have interest in wesnoth balance. First person who helped me sustain and fueled my interest in balancing by letting me help with EoMa (I admit i was pretty bad back then) was inferno8. I think I should thank him for that. (I wanted to share that for a moment now actually.) Now after 5 years it would be pretty sad if i didn't improve at all. So I guess that I should hope that some of them hold up. Maybe even all of them.

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Cackfiend
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 13th, 2019, 5:34 pm

Current pro players? It doesn't seem like there are any active.

Sorry, I was judging by your Join date of Sept 2016
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

Soliton
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Soliton » June 13th, 2019, 5:49 pm

Cackfiend wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 10:15 pm
When speaking of ladder balance we are strictly talking about 1v1 matchups. Wesnoth as a game was never balanced as a 1v1 game per the devs.
Wesnoth was specifically balanced for 1vs1 games as per the devs.

The proposed balancing changes seem fine for the most part though the Ulf, healthy, Orcish Archer and Elvish Shaman changes sound dubious. (in order of dubiousness ;)) I would suggest to leave those out at first in tests and try them after verifying the other changes.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Soliton » June 13th, 2019, 5:54 pm

Cackfiend wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm
Many changes were made to mainline units that the competitive players did not like. Cavalry movement, Orc Archer buff, Footpad nerf, etc.
Did those competitive players voice their opinion when those changes were discussed? (Here for example: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32430&start=105#p484916)
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

CrossBreed
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by CrossBreed » June 13th, 2019, 6:02 pm

Hejnewar wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:35 pm
Cackfiend wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 10:05 pm
Little miscommunication here. Hardy would be something that all Dwarves have and would not take up a trait spot. Healthy is already a mostly useless trait in most matchups. When it was introduced to the game it nerfed Dwarves heavily. The goal here is to make those fat 4mp dudes better.
Hmm then this is pure buff. But I disagree with healthy being bad trait. In comparison to resilient, healthy from start gives +2hp so you only need to regenerate 3 hp from it to make it equal to it, dwarfs usually doesnt die in one turn during defense in one turn.
I want to weigh in for keeping the Healthy trait. It increases variety among the factions and I think it fits dwarves very well in terms of lore.
If it's deemed too weak i would rather opt for buffing the trait itself. Personally i feel it's not too terrible anyway, but that's a different matter. :)

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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 13th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Soliton wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 5:49 pm
Cackfiend wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 10:15 pm
When speaking of ladder balance we are strictly talking about 1v1 matchups. Wesnoth as a game was never balanced as a 1v1 game per the devs.
Wesnoth was specifically balanced for 1vs1 games as per the devs.
tell that to jb and Noy ;)
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Cackfiend
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Re: Main Factions Balance

Post by Cackfiend » June 13th, 2019, 6:56 pm

Soliton wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 5:54 pm
Cackfiend wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm
Many changes were made to mainline units that the competitive players did not like. Cavalry movement, Orc Archer buff, Footpad nerf, etc.
Did those competitive players voice their opinion when those changes were discussed? (Here for example: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32430&start=105#p484916)

many many times, over many threads, different forums, in game chat, and pms
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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