Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

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Krogen
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Krogen » April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am

We have been talking a lot about naga and DS, (Im absolutely fine if it was called Dust Devil instead, though then it has the same name as the campaign Dust Devil) and DS seemed like a perfect desert-themed unit to add to Dunefolk. It wouldn’t be just a water unit like naga either, when it comes to gameplay there is just so much you can do with naga stats, meanwhile DS introduces swarm dynamics, interesting resistances and it flies so it is much more mobile. And also it can be made expensive (something that is much harder to do with naga) so it gives DF a late game focused unit.
Also it has an advantage of already being in the UtBS campaign so Dust Spirit would finally make that unit in the campaign relevant and expand its lore, meanwhile it wouldn’t make much difference regardless of what type of naga was added to the DF.

Some people have also noticed issues with naga lore. Why would nagas ally with Dunefolk? Orcs are an egalitarian society, they ally with nagas and presumably supply them with weapons, and do not demand anything in return except help in their raids. Dunefolk doesn’t raid other races like orcs do, and it is questionable whether both parties have goals similar enough so that they could form an alliance. Nagas are a rather primitive raace and actually it would make more sense if Dunefolk tried to enslave them rather than ally with them, in all the other alliances in default factions the races that ally have a lot in common, naga and DF don’t seem to have much in common.

Only thing that the nags have and DF could want to trade in return for their help are fish, in exchange Dunefolk could provide naga with weapons, but even such a trade agreement seems unlikely, Naga would probably distrust Dunefolk and Dunefolk would distrust naga, and we already know that nagas are allied with orcs, it is more likely that they would ask them for help rather than negotiate with humans (who they disdain judging by their dialogues in campaigns)
And even if they did agree to trade, it is far from being an alliance, so it doesn’t really fit anyway if we compare it to other factions.

Given all these issues with naga and Dunefolk alliance, it seems easier to introduce something new rather than try to make an alliance of 2 such different factions work.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 5th, 2019, 12:24 pm

Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Orcs are an egalitarian society, they ally with nagas and presumably supply them with weapons, and do not demand anything in return except help in their raids.
Where did you get this from? To me it would actually make more sense if the nagas were supplying orcs with weapons, not the other way around.
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Nagas are a rather primitive raace
What do you even mean by this!?
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Naga would probably distrust Dunefolk and Dunefolk would distrust naga, and we already know that nagas are allied with orcs, it is more likely that they would ask them for help rather than negotiate with humans (who they disdain judging by their dialogues in campaigns)
Basing your arguments off nagas' alliance with orcs ignores that species are not a monolith. It's entirely possible for a group of nagas in the north to be allied with orcs, while a separate group of nagas in the south are allied with dunefolk.

As for what the nagas can give them... well, I don't think it's strictly necessary that they rely on each other for trade, but there are many resources other than fish in the sea – for example, pearls or seaweed

But I think your biggest mistake in this argument is treating nagas as a single unified monolith. (And calling them primitive for some reason.)

-----

Personally, I see more problems in the Dust Devil lore/mechanics (the difficulty matching lore to mechanics) than in the naga lore. So, I still favour the naga.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Pentarctagon » April 5th, 2019, 1:43 pm

The current Dunefolk race description says "Mutual interests have fostered cordial relations with neighboring Naga tribes" at least, which isn't too hard to believe - the Naga are amphibious and probably stay in the water or relatively closer to shore, while the Dunefolk are nomads that inhabit much more arid regions and outright deserts, so in that sense they are complementary.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Xalzar » April 5th, 2019, 2:03 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 4:57 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 11:53 pm
I still prefer having a Naga, though mostly since I like how it fits into their lore.
I personally agree. But both would be valuable additions to the faction. :)
I was more convinced by the Jinn or the Dust Devil in the past, but now I think Nagas are cool and should remain. One thing that I don't understand: why has the DD come up right now? It's a bit late in the rework process I think, and now the spot for it is filled by other units. I can see it replacing the Shield Breaker if we really want, since I can see their role overlap better.
Caladbolg wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 9:56 pm
And DS's AMLA seems a bit complicated. I don't mind it, but I'll have to check out how it looks in-game. Usually you're presented with just a few unit names to choose from upon advancement, and with DS, you're hit with several lines of stat modifiers.
Actually that would be the best part of this unit for me. I still remember the special AMLA of the old Necrophage... :eng:
The_Gnat wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 4:57 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
Actually, lore-wise arcane vulnerability is given to supernatural creatures or something like that, so I think it could make sense for it to have more than 20%. For reference, the Fire Guardian has -30% arcane.
One consideration that need be made is the arcane attacks of the Adept and Ghost. The arcane resistance cannot just be shoved around to whatever suits thematically but also needs to be carefully considered in the UD matchup especially in light of its current stats which also include a cold weakness.
Not all units need to be useful against all other factions (if they are not core units of the faction of course), and if the Undead player is spamming Adepts and Ghosts then they have bigger problems coming from them! :lol:
If the necessity does arise though, I' suggest rising the cold resistance instead. After all dust is not only in hot deserts.
Thinking about the DD gave me the idea of giving it different attacks when it's on water though. Nice thing to entertain. :lol:
The_Gnat wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 4:57 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
I think it makes more sense as neutral, since it's kind of a force of nature. The Fire Guardian is also neutral, for example.
I think in regards to this issue the balance of the faction is a stronger priority than the thematic role that this would have.
I think forces of nature are varied and could be linked to periods of days (think about shadow elementals), giving them more power. So I can see it not being neutral.
The_Gnat wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 4:57 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:45 am
I cansee your reasoning here though, assuming it's correct (I don't know anything about desert meteorology). But if you were going with that, I'd wonder whether the Fire Guardian's alignment should be changed on similar grounds.
The Fire Guardian could very well be changed, as it is not part of a default era faction its alignment is of far less consequence. :)
Beware of this trap, you never know with campaigns. I don't say it's not doable, but the balance of campaigns is important too and before changes it needs to be checked.
Also, as I said right above, forces of nature are varied. This one could draw power from other sources than the period of the day.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 5th, 2019, 2:31 pm

Xalzar wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 2:03 pm
One thing that I don't understand: why has the DD come up right now? It's a bit late in the rework process I think, and now the spot for it is filled by other units.
Thats maybe something many people wonder. The DF + SB + DS variant was actually just as much explored and tested as the SB variant, but there was a lot of data missing for a coherent presentation in the forum. At the end most of us routed for the SB + Naga set up, but there have been done tons of works for the DS too, so it was sad to not at least present the work as it is part on what we did.

Take this more as an hypothetical concept as I too believe that SB + Naga is going to be the final set up.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Caladbolg » April 5th, 2019, 2:52 pm

Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Im absolutely fine if it was called Dust Devil instead, though then it has the same name as the campaign Dust Devil... Also it has an advantage of already being in the UtBS campaign so Dust Spirit would finally make that unit in the campaign relevant and expand its lore
I also prefer the name Dust Devil and I don't see much of an issue with it clashing with the existing DD in UtBS. That is a single unit with no plot significance, and I don't think we should base decisions about Dunefolk DD on such a unit. If anything, the UtBS DD should be the one to change to fit the new Dunefolk DD, if that's an issue. Though I personally prefer naga over DD anyways, but I wouldn't mind Dunefolk having both.
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Orcs are an egalitarian society
Are we talking about the same orcs here? The guys that treat weaker orcs like trash, use goblins (which are a part of their race) as cannon fodder, and consider trolls to be dumb brutes. Because those orcs are probably the least egalitarian society in mainline.

As for why Naga and the Dunefolk would ally, Naga can move over sand really well, but presumably don't actually live in the desert. DF occupy the desert, while the Naga would live near the coasts, or in some marshes on the uncharted edges of the desert. Depending on who was there first, either Naga helped the newly arrived DF to get accustomed to the deserts in exchange for protection against creatures that lived there, or the DF hired Naga mercenaries in some historic struggles between tribes. With their quick movement over both sand and water, and DF's knowledge of poisons, a few Naga slithering into an enemy oasis and poisoning it could have been an extremely efficient tactic considering how important water is in the desert.

With the DF being skilled in poisons and having miraculous healing abilities, I wouldn't be surprised if they also had some myths about snakes, which have long been considered symbols of poisons, healing, and rebirth. Maybe by extension they also view Naga as sacred, which could have helped in forming alliances.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Hejnewar » April 5th, 2019, 3:28 pm

Just to clarify SB as a concept was actually created later than DD.

When it comes to DD I wasn't sure if it was good idea to introduce it. But with games played I actually started to like it because playing it or vs it was fun for me. Still my biggest concern was it's lore.

Not too long ago I played isar with players new to our version of DF they managed to learn and counter it very fast.

What I like about DD:
-Swarm ability, it is forcing players to play around it and rewards them if they make good calls while punishing them for making bad plays.
-Concept of mechanics behind this unit, high movement makes playing around it's ablity easier, while resistances further reward / punish players for making good / bad calls.
-DD concept can in my opinion be easily transferred to some kind of beast if needed.

What I do not like about DD:
-Lore.
-How it looks, but I think only I do not like that.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Krogen » April 5th, 2019, 10:24 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:24 pm
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Orcs are an egalitarian society, they ally with nagas and presumably supply them with weapons, and do not demand anything in return except help in their raids.
Where did you get this from? To me it would actually make more sense if the nagas were supplying orcs with weapons, not the other way around.
According to their race description orcs live in tribes, only strength and power matters for them and they prepare for war all the time. By egalitarian I meant that even though various orcs struggle for power, the separate classes of orcs themselves are rather egalitarian, for example “true” orcs only focus on preparing for war and goblins do all the work. There doesn’t seem to be much trade going on in orc tribes, as they are solely focused on preparing for war. And while its true that the strongest orcs get the most power and therefore probably also have the right to most loot, orc classes like normal orcs or goblins as a whole would have to be egalitarian.

“An orc tribe in times of peace tends to focus solely on strengthening itself in preparation for the next armed conflict.

“Orc societies are based on little else but strength”

And if nagas supplied orcs with weapons, where would they get them from? Since when nagas have smiths and forge weapons, and do it underwater at that? They live in swamps, rivers, close to shore etc, how nagas could supply orcs with weapons? It is basically impossible for them to have weaponsmiths.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:24 pm
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Nagas are a rather primitive raace
What do you even mean by this!?
I mean that their society seems to be simple and their goals too, whenever you meet nagas in campaigns, they proclaim that they want to kill you and they speak in their snake voice. So it is likely that they would be raiding other races for loot. In some ways they seem to be similar to orcs.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:24 pm
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Naga would probably distrust Dunefolk and Dunefolk would distrust naga, and we already know that nagas are allied with orcs, it is more likely that they would ask them for help rather than negotiate with humans (who they disdain judging by their dialogues in campaigns)
Basing your arguments off nagas' alliance with orcs ignores that species are not a monolith. It's entirely possible for a group of nagas in the north to be allied with orcs, while a separate group of nagas in the south are allied with dunefolk.

Possible but not at all likely since as I said, they have little in common with Dunefolk. And while races are presumably not a monolith, all the orcs we meet have similar traits and goals, same as roughly all the elves we meet, though to a lesser degree. Nagas as a race seem to possess as a trait disdain for humans and a war-like nature since they always try to kill humans.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:24 pm
As for what the nagas can give them... well, I don't think it's strictly necessary that they rely on each other for trade, but there are many resources other than fish in the sea – for example, pearls or seaweed
Well, for a long lasting alliance there is a need for a long-term common goal, orcs and nagas raid humans and loot their settlements, Dunefolk and Naga do what exactly if not trade?
As for other resources, right, its possible, still though they would distrust humans.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Xalzar » April 6th, 2019, 9:42 am

Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:24 pm
According to their race description orcs live in tribes, only strength and power matters for them and they prepare for war all the time. By egalitarian I meant that even though various orcs struggle for power, the separate classes of orcs themselves are rather egalitarian, for example “true” orcs only focus on preparing for war and goblins do all the work. There doesn’t seem to be much trade going on in orc tribes, as they are solely focused on preparing for war. And while its true that the strongest orcs get the most power and therefore probably also have the right to most loot, orc classes like normal orcs or goblins as a whole would have to be egalitarian.
I think you're confused about the meaning of egalitarian, no offense. ;)
They have clearly an authoritarian caste system.
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:24 pm
And if nagas supplied orcs with weapons, where would they get them from? Since when nagas have smiths and forge weapons, and do it underwater at that? They live in swamps, rivers, close to shore etc, how nagas could supply orcs with weapons? It is basically impossible for them to have weaponsmiths.
To confirm this, these excerpts from TROW: "Lady Dionli: There is a group of saurians, friends of the dragon I'm sure, who are trading metal with the nagas of the sea. We should put a stop to this. They are located on a beach near here." and "Riaa (Naga): We must protect the saurians. We need the metal!"
Clearly Nagas don't have underwater forges, and are eager to trade (what? pearls? fish?) for metal.
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Nagas are a rather primitive raace. I mean that their society seems to be simple and their goals too, whenever you meet nagas in campaigns, they proclaim that they want to kill you and they speak in their snake voice. So it is likely that they would be raiding other races for loot. In some ways they seem to be similar to orcs.
This is a writing problem, they are written like a throwaway villain every time.
Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Naga would probably distrust Dunefolk and Dunefolk would distrust naga, and we already know that nagas are allied with orcs, it is more likely that they would ask them for help rather than negotiate with humans (who they disdain judging by their dialogues in campaigns)
They have little in common with Dunefolk. And while races are presumably not a monolith, all the orcs we meet have similar traits and goals, same as roughly all the elves we meet, though to a lesser degree. Nagas as a race seem to possess as a trait disdain for humans and a war-like nature since they always try to kill humans.
Even if true, they want to kill the northern humans. Maybe this animosity towards them is due to the "taming of the wild" in the early history of the kingdom, with the destruction of Nagas' habitats and the purging of many minor races who once inhabited the central plains.
I agree with this:
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:24 pm
Basing your arguments off nagas' alliance with orcs ignores that species are not a monolith. It's entirely possible for a group of nagas in the north to be allied with orcs, while a separate group of nagas in the south are allied with dunefolk.
The Nagas are quite fractured, they are not organized in a single nation, they seem to be scattered and so two groups of Naga from the north and from the south could never even know of each other (expecially since they are not accustomed to the deep waters which separate their areas).
In the south, there are no humans from Wesnoth (or very few), so when the Dunefolk came the Naga-Human relationship was a blank slate. It's possible that they started with the right foot.

Finally, this discussion should continue in the lore topic for the faction, IMO. :hmm:

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by The_Gnat » April 6th, 2019, 9:59 am

Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:35 am
Some people have also noticed issues with naga lore. ... naga and DF don’t seem to have much in common.
I actually don't agree. Also I think being in common is often a non-factor in alliances (ex. Dwarves and outlaws, elvish and merman). In fact the argument that Dust Spirits can ally with DF in of itself negates the idea that 'common-ness' is necessary. It is not the 'common-ness' of the units but instead the situation of the units that is important to consider. :)
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 9:42 am
...
Very well said, I agree with you analysis. I think it is important to not be oversimplify the naga.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 12:24 pm

But I think your biggest mistake in this argument is treating nagas as a single unified monolith. (And calling them primitive for some reason.)

-----

Personally, I see more problems in the Dust Devil lore/mechanics (the difficulty matching lore to mechanics) than in the naga lore. So, I still favour the naga.
I strongly agree with you. I think the Dust Spritit is a very interesting unique idea, but as far as thematical role I believe the Naga fits better with the DF.

That said I think people could agrue for decades about it. ;)

Note that I don't mean to undermine anyone's work, the DS has been well balanced for the faction, but I feel like the proposed Naga unit will fill the void in the DF faction better and cause less potential issues to lore and balance.
Hejnewar wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 3:28 pm
Just to clarify SB as a concept was actually created later than DD.
Just to clarify on this clarity ;) :eng: , the Shield Breaker was envisioned later in the game then the Dust Spirit but the Shield Breaker still underwent significant testing and balancing and is definitely the best possible addition (that is why it has been noted as being added in both the version with the Naga and the version with the Dust Spirit). It made the final cut as a guaranteed unit because of its important role to the DF faction.

Also probably worth noting is that part of the reason the Dust Spirit was created first is because it has its origins in the Jinni that had been discussed on the forums a long time ago. While of course it has come very far from the original unbalanced fire Jinn, it is nevertheless a similar idea of adding a unique flying movement Ghost-like unit to the faction.

So in summary, yes, the Dust Spirit was created a long time ago and has been very well considered and tested, and we have spent many hours discussing its lore in real time on the discord chat ^_^ We probably would personally prefer not to re-hash all those conversations but of course it makes sense that you have questions. :) so please excuse me if I accidentally come across as impatient at all, it is not intended :mrgreen:
Caladbolg wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 2:52 pm
With the DF being skilled in poisons and having miraculous healing abilities, I wouldn't be surprised if they also had some myths about snakes, which have long been considered symbols of poisons, healing, and rebirth. Maybe by extension they also view Naga as sacred, which could have helped in forming alliances.
That certainly is true as well. As I said before, certainly both the Naga and Dust Spirit unit can fit into the faction thematically which is a main part of the reasons they specifically have been selected :)
ghype wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 2:31 pm
Take this more as an hypothetical concept as I too believe that SB + Naga is going to be the final set up.
Yes. A few people had asked for more details around the other units we had considered. The Dust Spirit was the other unit which met the criteria we felt necessary for adding and which we spent time play testing and balancing. However, the Dust Spirit is a farther stretch lore-wise, it is classically only seen in UtBS, and it didn't really fill the role of water control as originally envisioned. These all made it a less likely candidate for being added, but nevertheless we thought to ask the community what your opinion is. :)

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Xalzar » April 6th, 2019, 11:33 am

The_Gnat wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 9:59 am
Yes. A few people had asked for more details around the other units we had considered. The Dust Spirit was the other unit which met the criteria we felt necessary for adding and which we spent time play testing and balancing. However, the Dust Spirit is a farther stretch lore-wise, it is classically only seen in UtBS, and it didn't really fill the role of water control as originally envisioned. These all made it a less likely candidate for being added, but nevertheless we thought to ask the community what your opinion is. :)
The only thing I'm not in agreement with is that the lore for the Dust Spirit is a stretch. In which way? Lorewise it's perfect. We have already seen elementals in the game, it's not far-fetched to imagine dust elementals in the desert and the Dunefolk successfully managing to control these things by non-magical means (I'm thinking "genie in a bottle", but in this case applied to the DS).

I think the major reason for its exclusion is the potential problem of balancing a swarm unit, which is very strong while full hp, and super weak when almost dead. That and possibly the will to have a slow weapon (used by the Shield Breaker).
If I'm being honest, despite these issues my preference at the moment is leaning towards the DS against the SB. The SB doesn't excite me very much at the moment, and its functions could very well be adopted by the DS. Skirmisher? DS can have it and it would make sense. Slow? DS could have a second, non-swarm attack with slow (gust of wind?). Impact damage? Check. Flat terrain control? Done.

Convince me otherwise. :twisted:

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Krogen » April 6th, 2019, 12:16 pm

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 9:42 am
I think you're confused about the meaning of egalitarian, no offense. ;)
They have clearly an authoritarian caste system.
Yes, egalitarian may have not been the best word, i meant that their castes are characterised by social equality.
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 9:42 am
To confirm this, these excerpts from TROW: "Lady Dionli: There is a group of saurians, friends of the dragon I'm sure, who are trading metal with the nagas of the sea. We should put a stop to this. They are located on a beach near here." and "Riaa (Naga): We must protect the saurians. We need the metal!"
Clearly Nagas don't have underwater forges, and are eager to trade (what? pearls? fish?) for metal.
Ok, I didn't hear about this one. Though it doesn't necessarily mean they used it so make weapons, maybe they value the metal as jevelry, use it as a currency, or even if it is to smith weapons, given that they are willing to go to great lenghts to get that metal, it certainly doesn't look like they are capable of mass production of weapons, certainly not at a rate higher than orcs, maybe it is just for the most important nagas.

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 9:42 am
Even if true, they want to kill the northern humans. Maybe this animosity towards them is due to the "taming of the wild" in the early history of the kingdom, with the destruction of Nagas' habitats and the purging of many minor races who once inhabited the central plains.
Maybe, though if nagas live in tribes, at least some tribes should be more friendly and not biased against humans. And I think there were some instances of meeting nagas further south and they still didn't like humans at all.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 6th, 2019, 12:17 pm

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:33 am
I think the major reason for its exclusion is the potential problem of balancing a swarm unit
This really is the biggest concern. On full hp it has 100% strength. On the first hit it's strength drops drastically. We never said that the balance is not manageable, it only require high skill to get the full potential for such a unit. It becomes a "noob-trap" for unexperienced players and it can be very frustrating to new players, which can lead to dismissive perceptions regarding Dunefolk.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Hejnewar » April 6th, 2019, 12:33 pm

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:33 am

If I'm being honest, despite these issues my preference at the moment is leaning towards the DS against the SB. The SB doesn't excite me very much at the moment, and its functions could very well be adopted by the DS. Skirmisher? DS can have it and it would make sense. Slow? DS could have a second, non-swarm attack with slow (gust of wind?). Impact damage? Check. Flat terrain control? Done.

Convince me otherwise. :twisted:
Ok how much such unit would cost? I would say with just skirmisher it would cost 27g. ;) Or its statistics would be no longer those of dust spirit.

Flat control. DS cannot control anything without support. And the more expensive unit is the less of support it will get.
Slow. If its wind could slow down targets on pair with roots or nets then couldnt it just suffocate its targets?
Skirmisher. I think spotting something like tornado of sand and dust would be easy enough and I think skirmisher is all about staying low.
ghype wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 12:17 pm

This really is the biggest concern. On full hp it has 100% strength. On the first hit it's strength drops drastically. We never said that the balance is not manageable, it only require high skill to get the full potential for such a unit. It becomes a "noob-trap" for unexperienced players and it can be very frustrating to new players, which can lead to dismissive perceptions regarding Dunefolk.
As I stated in my earlier post tests about that were done too. Maybe players that i was playing with were more experienced than newcomer but they still didnt know what swarm was doing and they quickly got accustomed to it.

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Vendanna
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Vendanna » April 6th, 2019, 1:01 pm

Hejnewar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 12:33 pm
Ok how much such unit would cost? I would say with just skirmisher it would cost 27g. ;) Or its statistics would be no longer those of dust spirit.

Flat control. DS cannot control anything without support. And the more expensive unit is the less of support it will get.
Slow. If its wind could slow down targets on pair with roots or nets then couldnt it just suffocate its targets?
Skirmisher. I think spotting something like tornado of sand and dust would be easy enough and I think skirmisher is all about staying low.
Welp, skirmisher avoiding zone of control could be explained in lore as "found alternative routes" or lay low so it can pass thru the enemy lines, but technically if a creature where unstoppable most of the time (for example a wind elemental) without material body, then yes the unit could have a merit to gain skirmisher (doesn't need to, its just a merit) since a normal group of spearmen, etc... wouldn't be able to stop air passing thru them.

note however that even if a unit merit's thru lore/etc... a skill, it doesn't mean that from a balance perspective it should get it, since you can come up with a explanation (some are easier than others) to why it should get something.

Now about the dunefolk, I don't think this is the correct thread? but I recall in one of those threads mentioning that Nagas supply weapons to the orcs, the easiest explanation is that the dunefolk trade weapons with the naga, which gives them to the orcs. the nagas are only intermediaries between these two races (getting benefit from both in the process)
"Mysteries are revealed in the light of reason."

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