Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 6th, 2019, 9:02 pm

Krogen wrote:
April 5th, 2019, 10:24 pm
And if nagas supplied orcs with weapons, where would they get them from? Since when nagas have smiths and forge weapons, and do it underwater at that? They live in swamps, rivers, close to shore etc, how nagas could supply orcs with weapons? It is basically impossible for them to have weaponsmiths.
There are two problems with this argument.
  • The merfolk also have metal weapons, and they're an aquatic race. Where do they get their weapons from? Probably they forge them themselves. I don't know if they can do it underwater (that might be tricky or impossible), but they surely have some way to do it while not needing to go ashore. The nagas could easily use a similar tactic.
  • Unlike the merfolk, nagas are amphibious. They could easily build a forge on land and craft their weapons there. Rather than living "close to shore", I would say they live "on the shore", both in the water and on land. (Plus in swamps and rivers, which are basically water in the middle of land anyway.)
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 9:42 am
To confirm this, these excerpts from TROW: "Lady Dionli: There is a group of saurians, friends of the dragon I'm sure, who are trading metal with the nagas of the sea. We should put a stop to this. They are located on a beach near here." and "Riaa (Naga): We must protect the saurians. We need the metal!"
Clearly Nagas don't have underwater forges, and are eager to trade (what? pearls? fish?) for metal.
My conclusion from that snippet is that the nagas do have forges, though probably not underwater, yeah.
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:33 am
The_Gnat wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 9:59 am
Yes. A few people had asked for more details around the other units we had considered. The Dust Spirit was the other unit which met the criteria we felt necessary for adding and which we spent time play testing and balancing. However, the Dust Spirit is a farther stretch lore-wise, it is classically only seen in UtBS, and it didn't really fill the role of water control as originally envisioned. These all made it a less likely candidate for being added, but nevertheless we thought to ask the community what your opinion is. :)
The only thing I'm not in agreement with is that the lore for the Dust Spirit is a stretch. In which way? Lorewise it's perfect. We have already seen elementals in the game, it's not far-fetched to imagine dust elementals in the desert and the Dunefolk successfully managing to control these things by non-magical means (I'm thinking "genie in a bottle", but in this case applied to the DS).
It definitely makes sense to imagine dust elementals in the desert. I'm not entirely convinced of the dunefolk finding a way to control them though.
Krogen wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 12:16 pm
Ok, I didn't hear about this one. Though it doesn't necessarily mean they used it so make weapons, maybe they value the metal as jevelry, use it as a currency, or even if it is to smith weapons, given that they are willing to go to great lenghts to get that metal, it certainly doesn't look like they are capable of mass production of weapons, certainly not at a rate higher than orcs, maybe it is just for the most important nagas.
...

Riiiiight...
Vendanna wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 1:01 pm
Now about the dunefolk, I don't think this is the correct thread? but I recall in one of those threads mentioning that Nagas supply weapons to the orcs, the easiest explanation is that the dunefolk trade weapons with the naga, which gives them to the orcs. the nagas are only intermediaries between these two races (getting benefit from both in the process)
This argument would be more plausible if the dunefolk and orcs were closer together. Are you suggesting the nagas make regular trips up and down the coast of Wesnoth? It's possible, sure, but it doesn't strike me as likely – especially since they would need to pass through the territory of the merfolk, who they don't get along with.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Vendanna » April 6th, 2019, 9:14 pm

maybe the dunefolk uses falkons to thell the naga about secret routes or where to evade merfolk. (they could also have a marine route with the merfolk and "play both ways") if they are weapon traders they may be interested in give weapons to both "naga" and "merfolk" since war is profit for them, thus having an "armistice" for free pass on their zones. dunno.

Also, even if its "contested" border between merfolk and naga, its not like they control all the routes? (not sure since I don't have a visual map to check this fact) and or they could have 1 Naga inside a ship (the merfolk doesn't need to know) which helps them to talk with the orcs without "showing" themselves. and in the process transport some nagas from one place to the other while they are "merchandising" and have favourable trade with the merfolk which doesn't suspect of all the cargo the ships contains.

then the nagas could bring them herbs for their "poison master/healers" that are only in the zones of wesnoth that the dunefolk cannot get easily otherwise.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Xalzar » April 6th, 2019, 11:36 pm

Baaaaack on topic, I tried some matches against the AI (my schedule is quite erratic, I cannot commit to a MP match) with the SB+DS version to try a bit both the new units.
I'd say I underestimated a bit the Shield Breaker, but I've found another problem: while the melee attack is nice to finish off wounded units, its ranged attack is frustrating. That is quite obvious, since it's a one-strike one. Didn't we say we wanted to avoid them? :hmm: That, and the lack of slow seriously hinders its usefulness.
About its movement and defenses: quite strange that's 3 mov cost for shallow water and 2 for mountains; 70% on mountains (like Dwarves!) seems too much, I'd keep it 60%. Dunefolk need a unit which covers their worse terrains, no need for one who does even better on their best.
About it's alignment: maybe I was unattentive but I missed the fact that is Lawful. That was surprising to me. I'd have seen it being Liminal.

The current Dust Spirit is costly and more frail than its resistances suggest. I can see some resistances and/or movements drop on some terrains (watery terrains for example, I can see the explanation being that it needs to be dry). If this is the case, the Naga is sure to remain.
Its frailty is due majorly to the weakening attack, which encourages enemy units to focus on it. It could be its function: tank, attract attacks on itself, keep zoc. Its swarm attack is useful only if it catches a unit by surprise and attacks it first, and then the sequent turn already is seriously weakened and not good for ranged retaliation - seems like it functions a bit like Charge.
About the AMLAs... Dust1: if wounded, it gains a better ranged attack but it heals of 40% of max hp...so the swarm attack is weakened and not useful immediately. Dust2 gives a more powerful melee attack (which doesn't degrade) and more healing. Dust3, full heal. So, the intention is perhaps: if the unit is wounded (almost always), pick Dust 3 or if you really want Dust 2; never take Dust1 if wounded and near enemies because you're likely to die to them next turn? Is it right?
While thinking about AMLAs, I've come up with AMLAs with new weapon specials. Maybe it's completely crazy, I don't know if the rework team thought about it and tried it, and if yes what were their conclusions.
Another thought: the Dunefolk faction already has lawful, liminal and chaotic units; if we change the Dust Spirit to neutral we would have all the alignments represented. Maybe this could be a peculiarity of the faction.

And now I'm interested and I really want to modify the DS to see how it would work... Oh no! :doh: :lol:

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by The_Gnat » April 7th, 2019, 7:08 am

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:33 am
If I'm being honest, despite these issues my preference at the moment is leaning towards the DS against the SB. The SB doesn't excite me very much at the moment, and its functions could very well be adopted by the DS. Skirmisher? DS can have it and it would make sense. Slow? DS could have a second, non-swarm attack with slow (gust of wind?). Impact damage? Check. Flat terrain control? Done.

Convince me otherwise. :twisted:
Just to let you know, there is no case we are proposing where the Shield Breaker will not be added. :) The question is Dust Spirit vs. Naga.

As far as convincing goes, it would be impossible to balance the DS if it had skirmisher. That would just be plain OP. And if it was balanced well enough to not be OP it would be too weak to deal effective damage or hold ground.

Flat control only works if you can survive long enough to control the ground, with skirmisher as well on the DS, the unit inevitably would have to be nerfed in either HP or dmg and therefore would be ineffective at its key goals of flat control and water control.

I will highlight this because I believe many people often make this mistake when suggesting alternate stats, it is not a terrible idea but of course it misses a key points that should be noted:

  • It is important to remember that a flying unit will inevitably be either weak in strength and hp or be OP. This means that flying units will be good at holding ground inversely proportional to their speed and maneuverability. On the past thread when we were discussing the Jinn many people made this mistake. It is very hard to create a balanced flying unit that can also hold ground. A prime example of this is the very expensive and very fast Ghypon. Even with its high cost it still is weak at holding ground and this has to be the case in order for it to be balanced. There are nuanced levels of detail and balance from which this can be discussed but I will not go there right now.


Also it would be appreciated if people respect the fact that we have spent a considerable amount of time testing and balancing and it is highly unlikely that a major change to any of the suggested units will bring it closer to balance. Large changes will likely force large amounts of time retesting and rebalancing.
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:36 pm
I'd say I underestimated a bit the Shield Breaker, but I've found another problem: while the melee attack is nice to finish off wounded units, its ranged attack is frustrating. That is quite obvious, since it's a one-strike one. Didn't we say we wanted to avoid them? :hmm: That, and the lack of slow seriously hinders its usefulness.
Yeah, well that weapon was not so much an actual weapon as a counter to being destroyed by ranged units. ;)
Last edited by The_Gnat on April 7th, 2019, 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 7th, 2019, 7:18 am

thanks for your feedback!
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:36 pm
ts ranged attack is frustrating. That is quite obvious, since it's a one-strike one. Didn't we say we wanted to avoid them? :hmm: That, and the lack of slow seriously hinders its usefulness.
well it's not much different then the spearman for example, it's not really intended to be used offensively. If we'd add slow on lv1 too then something else has to be nerfed and it would debalance the unit. The only thing i could see is like a very weak 3-1 slow like a defensive mechanism on lv1. What do you think?
Eitherway, I'd have to check with Hejne about that.
Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:36 pm
About its movement and defenses: quite strange that's 3 mov cost for shallow water and 2 for mountains; 70% on mountains (like Dwarves!) seems too much, I'd keep it 60%.
Good points, these are gonna be implemented in the next update.

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:36 pm
About it's alignment: maybe I was unattentive but I missed the fact that is Lawful. That was surprising to me. I'd have seen it being Liminal.
Initially it was liminal, but as you know liminal is a much stronger alignment then lawful. So we had to make it lawful in order to balance it properly.

Xalzar wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 11:36 pm
Another thought: the Dunefolk faction already has lawful, liminal and chaotic units; if we change the Dust Spirit to neutral we would have all the alignments represented. Maybe this could be a peculiarity of the faction.
I don't have much to say about DS as I am not pushing this path, but there is a difference in having a 3rd alignment as an optional lv2 which is no leader and a 3rd alignment from a recruitable unit.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Xalzar » April 7th, 2019, 8:41 am

The_Gnat wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:08 am
Just to let you know, there is no case we are proposing where the Shield Breaker will not be added. :) The question is Dust Spirit vs. Naga.
Yeah, I wasn't quite sure. Then I'd say go for Naga, DS cannot hold water and shares too much functionality with the SB (my proposed version of it at least) to coexist. :doh:
ghype wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:18 am
I don't have much to say about DS as I am not pushing this path
Yep. Not sure why it was pushed into the faction then, Naga is clearly the best answer. :hmm:
The_Gnat wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:08 am
Also it would be appreciated if people respect the fact that we have spent a considerable amount of time testing and balancing and it is highly unlikely that a major change to any of the suggested units will bring it closer to balance. Large changes will likely force large amounts of time retesting and rebalancing.
I know that, but then why is there a version of the faction with the DS if it's already deemed unbalanced and we don't need feedback about it? Let's delete it already! Occam's razor, c'mon! :mrgreen:

Dropping the Dust Spirit, it can be a fun addition to campaigns. :eng:
ghype wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:18 am
SB:
well it's not much different then the spearman for example, it's not really intended to be used offensively.
ghype wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:18 am
SB:
Yeah, well that weapon was not so much an actual weapon as a counter to being destroyed by ranged units. ;)
I believe you if you say it's the only way for it to be balanced. No need to add slow then, since it's just a minor attack.
Since it gains a weapon special on higher levels, I thought it was a legit optional attack. I will miss it against melee units, it's often quite risky to attack them on melee, even with high defences (RNG :evil: ). :(
ghype wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:18 am
Initially it was liminal, but as you know liminal is a much stronger alignment then lawful. So we had to make it lawful in order to balance it properly.
I want to see the acrobatics in the lore department to justify this. Visually and thematically it seems a nomad type (which in this faction has the liminal alignment). It just doesn't seem part of the city garrison. :hmm:
Also, it would buff a little that lonely ranged attack... :roll:

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Hejnewar » April 7th, 2019, 12:53 pm

Xalzar wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 8:41 am
ghype wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 7:18 am
Initially it was liminal, but as you know liminal is a much stronger alignment then lawful. So we had to make it lawful in order to balance it properly.
I want to see the acrobatics in the lore department to justify this. Visually and thematically it seems a nomad type (which in this faction has the liminal alignment). It just doesn't seem part of the city garrison. :hmm:
Also, it would buff a little that lonely ranged attack... :roll:
Why would you buff this rnaged attack? And what would you give up for that?

Ok let's give Sb ilminal. How that would affect it's statistics? We cannot lower it's damage to 3-4 / 5-1 it would make SB too weak and if we compensate for that with hp this unit will be just too defensive. We cannot just leave it's damage untouched because that would make SB stronger than lizard skirmisher so we need to nerf hp this time and that would make her to squishy to even do its job properly and for what? For defensive bonus.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Krogen » April 8th, 2019, 2:51 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 6th, 2019, 9:02 pm
...
"The merfolk also have metal weapons, and they're an aquatic race. Where do they get their weapons from? Probably they forge them themselves. I don't know if they can do it underwater (that might be tricky or impossible), but they surely have some way to do it while not needing to go ashore. The nagas could easily use a similar tactic."

They trade for them with humans or other races, so they would get them in a similiar way nagas could get them according to theory i put forward.

"They could easily build a forge on land and craft their weapons there."

Even if so they would have serious issues getting metal and setting any larger infrastructure which renders mass production of weapons extremely unlikely.

And besides they don't seem much more amphibious than mermen are if we judge by their movement costs. True nagas are way better on hard terrain but mermen can move on land as well, also lets not forget that mermen use magic that can help them while nagas don't.

Xalzar wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 8:41 am
I know that, but then why is there a version of the faction with the DS if it's already deemed unbalanced and we don't need feedback about it? Let's delete it already! Occam's razor, c'mon! :mrgreen:
I think there is some confusion here, who claimed that DS is unbalanced?
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 8th, 2019, 3:17 am

Krogen wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 2:51 am
They trade for them with humans or other races, so they would get them in a similiar way nagas could get them according to theory i put forward.
I really want to know why you think humans or dwarves would be forging tridents. I have a hard time imagining a dwarf going spear-fishing with a three-pronged spear. A human maybe, but they probably have actual fishing rods which do a better job with less effort. Why exactly would they be making tridents, then?

Of course you could say "because the merfolk want them", but what incentive would dwarves or humans have to give merfolk the specific type of weapon they prefer? If merfolk were getting their weapons from dwarves or humans, I'd expect them to wield more swords and spears rather than tridents.

Why can't the merfolk just make their own tridents? Do you think mineral resources like iron ore simply don't exist under the sea? Mind you, there's probably no requirement for their tridents to even be made of metal. The blades could be fashioned of stone, for example, and the haft... maybe some kind of bone? Or if you think the process of refining iron is too much for an aquatic race (which is a questionable view, but...) but still want them to have metal tridents, they could be using bronze.
Krogen wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 2:51 am
Even if so they would have serious issues getting metal and setting any larger infrastructure which renders mass production of weapons extremely unlikely.
It's clearly been established that they trade for metal with other races. That said, there's literally no reason why a naga couldn't just pick up a pickaxe and go mining for ores. (They even have 40% defense on cave terrain, which while not great is also not terrible.) You seem to be treating nagas as equivalent to merfolk, as if they're aquatic creatures, but they aren't aquatic at all. They're amphibious. They function almost equally well on land and in water. A naga tribe could build a village far from any water, and they'd function just fine. That's not true of the merfolk. They can move about alright on land, but they're out of their element. They need to return to the water eventually.

Given that nagas can function just fine on land, there's literally nothing stopping them from setting up the infrastructure for mass production of weapons. But they don't even need to do that. They have no need to churn out a constant stream of weapons. They only need to produce enough weapons for their own use. They don't need anything like factories or whatever. Just a single forge and a single weaponsmith could likely supply enough weapons for several tribes, since weapons probably don't need to be replaced all that often.
Krogen wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 2:51 am
And besides they don't seem much more amphibious than mermen are if we judge by their movement costs. True nagas are way better on hard terrain but mermen can move on land as well, also lets not forget that mermen use magic that can help them while nagas don't.
Uhh, what? I don't know where you get this idea from, since the only area where nagas perform worse than merfolk in movement costs is on castle (which is actually quite weird, I'd suggest reducing the naga's castle movecost if it doesn't impact balance too much), and on several terrains, merfolk perform far worse. If you look at defenses, the situation is similar, except for naga's disadvantage on frozen terrain. Sure, merfolk can move on land, but they're not nearly as good on land as nagas. They may be the same on flat (which is unrealistic in my opinion, but maybe it's necessary for balance), but on more exotic terrains like forest or hills, nagas are far better. And merfolk can't even enter mountains at all; nagas can, even though they don't perform very well there. Also, there's literally no reason to believe that magic would help merfolk to move on land – there's no lore that I know of to suggest that such magic even exists, but even if it did, most of the merfolk don't even use magic. So it can't explain why all merfolk can flop about on land.

-----

Well, the long and short of it is, I think your theories lack imagination. Worse, it feels like you're dead set on painting both races as somehow lesser because they spend a lot of time in the water.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 8th, 2019, 5:28 am

Krogen wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 2:51 am
Xalzar wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 8:41 am
I know that, but then why is there a version of the faction with the DS if it's already deemed unbalanced and we don't need feedback about it? Let's delete it already! Occam's razor, c'mon! :mrgreen:
I think there is some confusion here, who claimed that DS is unbalanced?
It is not really unbalanced, but you could also say its the least balanced unit right now.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Xalzar » April 8th, 2019, 9:47 am

ghype wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 5:28 am
Krogen wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 2:51 am
Xalzar wrote:
April 7th, 2019, 8:41 am
I know that, but then why is there a version of the faction with the DS if it's already deemed unbalanced and we don't need feedback about it? Let's delete it already! Occam's razor, c'mon! :mrgreen:
I think there is some confusion here, who claimed that DS is unbalanced?
It is not really unbalanced, but you could also say its the least balanced unit right now.
"It" refers to "version". That said, I think the DS is indeed quite behind on balance, and even more on functionality (it means: right now it's useless and not fun either). Any proposals about it will be shot down so it's best to not bother and delete the SB+DS version already. :eng:

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Hejnewar » April 8th, 2019, 11:05 am

@Xalazar

DS was balanced looking specifically to not be op in late game so we needed to look at it when at peak of its power. And he still is fun for me. DS can work very well in some matchups when played correctly and I can feel it's power when attacking let's say trolls or even spearmans or dwarf fighters. And even if concept of unit might not be the best mechanics behind this concept might be worth saving.

@Krogen

Please instead of trying to convince us about in my opinion not really important thing or showing that Naga is worse than DS please could you instead show us why DS is better than Naga? This way is in my opinion certainly better.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 8th, 2019, 11:13 am

Xalzar wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 9:47 am
delete the SB+DS version already
it will be. we just wanted to give people a glimpse on what else we have been working on.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Krogen » April 9th, 2019, 8:52 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 3:17 am
...
“Why can't the merfolk just make their own tridents? Do you think mineral resources like iron ore simply don't exist under the sea?”


Well, do you think that mermen are capable of swimming deep enough and construct deep, underwater mines and also they are able to efficiently mine with a pickaxe and do it under water? Mermen miners?

Say, even if there were some shallow iron deposits close to the shore, since anywhere deeper would be too deep and too dark for mermen, even if we assume that there is any significant amount of iron there (I don’t know much about mining iron, but I think its not very likely), then mining with a pickaxe underwater would be way slower than on the surface and so not very practical.

And then, even if they did get that iron ore, they would need to smelt it, its no easy task, they would need a lot of coal which they don’t have, and since mermen are clumsy on the surface, even if they had the resources it would still be very hard for them.

Buying weapons would be much easier especially since they have a lot of things like pearls or fish to trade.


“Mind you, there's probably no requirement for their tridents to even be made of metal. The blades could be fashioned of stone, for example, and the haft... maybe some kind of bone?”

Right, its possible that they could use such tridents, but I think it would be way easier for them to buy high grade metal weapons from humans (who are their allies) rather than use lower quality weapons.


“Or if you think the process of refining iron is too much for an aquatic race (which is a questionable view, but...) but still want them to have metal tridents, they could be using bronze.”

Well, they would need to mine a lot of copper and tin for that, and so it runs into similar problems as mining iron.


“It's clearly been established that they trade for metal with other races. That said, there's literally no reason why a naga couldn't just pick up a pickaxe and go mining for ores. (They even have 40% defense on cave terrain, which while not great is also not terrible.) You seem to be treating nagas as equivalent to merfolk, as if they're aquatic creatures, but they aren't aquatic at all. They're amphibious. They function almost equally well on land and in water.”

Maybe but in the one example in campaigns where they trade for metal they seem to value it really highly. If they hadunderground mines and forges to smelt iron producing tons of iron, then why should they care for one insignificant metal transport.

Its true that they don’t need massive amounts of iron, butif they were capable of mining enough iron, then we shouldn’t see them only in water in campaigns, they would settle in caves and create a new faction of cave dwelling naga miners who would start fighting with dwarves and trolls.

That is if it was even feasible for them, I reckon that even though an intelligent snake-like naga can pick a pickaxe and mine a bit, they can’t do it as well as a human or a dwarf.


“Uhh, what? I don't know where you get this idea from, since the only area where nagas perform worse than merfolk in movement costs is on castle (which is actually quite weird, I'd suggest reducing the naga's castle movecost if it doesn't impact balance too much),”

No, I meant that their flat defense and movement for a level 1 naga are the same, on higher levels defense is increased. And while they do move better on hard terrain like forests or hills than mermen, it is still nowhere close to humans or other races.


“Also, there's literally no reason to believe that magic would help merfolk to move on land – there's no lore that I know of to suggest that such magic even exists, but even if it did, most of the merfolk don't even use magic. So it can't explain why all merfolk can flop about on land.”

Yes, ok, I thought that maybe they can use levitation or something but you are right that its not established anywhere.


“Well, the long and short of it is, I think your theories lack imagination. Worse, it feels like you're dead set on painting both races as somehow lesser because they spend a lot of time in the water.”

I think a half-human half-fish creature would make a worse miner than a human.


Xalzar wrote:
April 8th, 2019, 9:47 am
"It" refers to "version". That said, I think the DS is indeed quite behind on balance, and even more on functionality (it means: right now it's useless and not fun either). Any proposals about it will be shot down so it's best to not bother and delete the SB+DS version already. :eng:
As Hejnewar said its rather balanced right now and some people may find it fun others not, just like with many units in default. I have heard that quite a few people found it fun.

About showing why DS is better, well I did talk a bit about it in one of my earlier posts.
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Edwylm
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Joined: August 24th, 2015, 11:18 pm

Re: Dunefolk Rework - Removed Units & Extra Units

Post by Edwylm » April 9th, 2019, 5:07 pm

There are many ways for merman to make their tridents made of metals. one is mining, scavenging from shipwrecks, trading or raiding. easiest way would be though trading however there is a problem of having no trade so where they get the materials? UtBS has that part where the merman have no trade with landfolk that i remembered.

mining underwater isn't hard but there are health risks but there is always those. you don't need a pickaxe to mine. you have explosions, hammers, and water... water my friend is a merman's best friend yet, it is a rock's worst enemy. erosion caused by high water pressure focused on small area does a lot, have you heard of bog iron? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron Bog iron also has a added bonus of being harder to rust perfect for merfolk.

forging would might be an issue but thats because of merman biology if they be able to forge in air conditions. otherwise thermal vents would be a good source pf heat. fuel wise seaweed and algae can be their main fuel to burn.

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