Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

[ghype]

I can't think of a justification for adding slows to a sword type weapon. Slows is associated with entanglement, an impediment on the enemy's movement. How would that work with a sword? A sword is just a blade.

any throughn object connected to a rope (like bolas) would entangle units. the difference is that bolas do their best job, because of the wieght and its smooth surface. But just like that, if you connect blades to the end of bolas instead of round weights, you still gonna get the same momentum (if they have the same weight ofc). What changes is the surface from it being a blade.

Considering this, I woudl say it qualifies to have slow and it becomes blade dmg (though i am just as fine having impact).
But physically, it should be the same...

[Pentarctagon]

Would bolas make sense on a water unit though?

[Edwylm]

bolas best work outside of water. however, one could use seaweed like a grappling hook or a lasso to use to slow down units. one would think it be impacting but some seaweed have hooks/spikes on them which could be a pierce attack. if a grappling hook you could have it as a pierce or blade depending on the shape of the grapple.

[The_Gnat]

I think we are in a position to make the weapon whatever type we want. Explaining things is a lot easier than making proper balance.

[ghype]

currently net projectly is the web projectile from spider .... so if we really want something more unique regarding a throuable projectile which can slow, that we should start with updating the net projectle and make it different from spider web.

'd agree to a net+slow for naga on lv1, it would be refreshing

[The_Gnat]

The net is also used by the pillager and Merman Net caster if I remember correctly. So any other sort of slow weapon would be better. I like the idea of a bladed slow weapon, alternatively it could pierce such as a grapple hook?

[Celtic_Minstrel]

Water offers higher resistance than air, so weapons with a larger surface area (such as a mace) are less effective. A weapon relying significantly on momentum (such as bolas or a chain whip) would likely also be less effective underwater, though of course it depends on how streamlined it is (bolas are connected by string, which is pretty streamlined, but the ends are spheres so it would lose momentum quickly; a chain blade would probably be more effective).

Note that nagas are not precisely a water unit, though. Unlike the merfolk, they are amphibious. So a weapon that's a bit less effective underwater would still be fine since they're going to be using it out of the water quite a bit too.

[ghype]

I want to propose some more.

But first, i want to know if you agree that the lv2 spear line does not really fid as a lv up to soldier (visually and concept-wise).
The only few things that would remind us to the soldier line are its resistance and the fact that it has 2 strikes. But that is not enough to justify the switch from one to a completely different weapon (scimitar to lance) and hence change the attack type (blade to pierce). The change of weapon would justify the replacing of marksman special with first-strike special, but a jump from one to the other special is too much for me.
Not to talk about the visual changes, there no similarities indicating that the spearguard could come from the soldier. In fact, his armour is more similar to the rover but that would make even less sense ...

here is a image to demonstrate my concerns:

soldier-spearguard.png (5.1 KiB) Viewed 2620 times

(1) I'd propose we remove spearguard as 2nd advancement to soldier and make him only available as random leader. Similar to loy lieutenant. It would affect balance much since most of the game are decided with lv1 units, and as long there is no lv1 to the spear line.

(2) blades/swordsman have this mystical shield attack which hasn't been used once in history. in all the test games I did over the past weeks (they were many), neither me nor my opponent chose the one strike shield attack with slow over the two strike blade attack with marksman. Hence I would suggest not only remove it, but maybe give it the spearguard. If we consider (1), then such a spearguard leader in a undead matchup would have to fish for adepts, but would be more or less useless against skels since it has no ranged against skel fighters. This would open up new strategies and I would go so far to say we could change it from 10-1 impact slow to 5-2 impact slow to encourage players to use it more. This way the unit would become more special and would deserve its place as a random leader.

(3) I would not give naga ranged slow (net) if we consider (2). I am pretty sure we find other interesting alternatives for that hypothetical naga unit.

[The_Gnat]

Note that nagas are not precisely a water unit, though.

Yes I agree and I personally see a blade or pierce weapon as the best possibility for the naga. However, I believe it should be discussed what other roles we want the naga to fill because that will give clearer direction to what attacks and weapon specials it should have.

(1) I'd propose we remove spearguard as 2nd advancement to soldier

Yes I absolutely agree. And while many will be quick to point out the loyalist spearman's advancements, I believe that the massive change in this unit very much undermines the specialist nature of the soldier by removing his defining attribute which is the marksman melee attack.

I this change believe it would add to clarity without worsening the DF.

blades/swordsman have this mystical shield attack which hasn't been used once in history.

I agree with the principal argument you are making that the shield is under powered compared to the Goblin Raiders slows net or other units with slows in the game. I believe this is primarily because the potential damage received by attacking with this inferior melee attack means this attack can't be used effectively against almost any melee unit. This is largely because with only 1 strike it is unlikely event to hit and as a tank type unit thr bladesman will usually prefer to attack rather than slow in most tactical situations.

I also can see the value in adding the shield to the spearman, however, believe if that is done the lvl 2 bladesman will need a slight buff because it is currently balanced with the assumption that the shield is valuable.

(3) I would not give naga ranged slow (net) if we consider (2)

I do not think that the lvl 2 spearman having slows in any way precludes the naga also. However, I also don't believe that slows is necessarily an optimal attack for the naga.

What benefits would the slows special bring and would it be best implemented through this primarily water unit or better through a land unit?

Also considering the Merman Net caster I would still believe that for the sake of uniqueness the naga have a different special. Potentially even a swamp prowl where it hides in shallow water?

Moreover, regardless of what ability is implemented I believe we need to actually start doing testing on what this falcon replacement would do to the faction because mere talk can, and probably will, last forever.

[ghype]

many will be quick to point out the loyalist spearman's advancements,

the spear line at least as visual consistency on its lv ups. The soldier doesn't. I would even say the blade's man does not close anywhere to the soldier, but that is some other topic...

I also can see the value in adding the shield to the spearman, however, believe if that is done the lvl 2 bladesman will need a slight buff because it is currently balanced with the assumption that the shield is valuable.

noted. does it really though?

Moreover, regardless of what ability is implemented I believe we need to actually start doing testing on what this falcon replacement would do to the faction because mere talk can, and probably will, last forever.

we are actually doing exactly that. but more on that on a different time.

[The_Gnat]

many will be quick to point out the loyalist spearman's advancements,

the spear line at least as visual consistency on its lv ups. The soldier doesn't. I would even say the blade's man does not close anywhere to the soldier, but that is some other topic...

noted. does it really though?

I actually think these are both questions for another topic, but it would be good to discuss them at a later time.

we are actually doing exactly that. but more on that on a different time.

That is great to hear!

[Pentarctagon]

I do not think that the lvl 2 spearman having slows in any way precludes the naga also. However, I also don't believe that slows is necessarily an optimal attack for the naga.

What benefits would the slows special bring and would it be best implemented through this primarily water unit or better through a land unit?

Also considering the Merman Net caster I would still believe that for the sake of uniqueness the naga have a different special. Potentially even a swamp prowl where it hides in shallow water?

That sounds quite overpowered, given how many maps have streams throughout them.

[The_Gnat]

True, nevermind my suggestion.

[Pentarctagon]

I'm also still in favor of poison, by the way.

[The_Gnat]

I'm also still in favor of poison, by the way.

For uniqueness, thematic interest, and strategic possibilities, I definitely agree. I feel like poison would also be more beneficial to the faction and allow the naga to contribute to the attacks while also being a water control unit.