Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

[ghype]

Has anyone thought about implementing ToD modifiers as race-specific traits?

I don't know how practical this would be, but i find this concept very interesting and think it should be more discussed here - wether it could replace liminal alignment or not.

An alternative for this concept would be to have random alignments. For example: Soldier would be either Lawfull or Liminal with a chance of 50%. Optionally you could weightn the chances for every unit differently.
But it seems very counter-intuitive and ,as mentioned, i wouldn know how practical it would be ...

So afterall, maybe its not such a good idea.

The hardest parts of making a faction are making sprites and ensuring balance. While I wouldn't mind the sorts of units that you propose, they'd require a lot of new art to be made, in a consistent style. Considering that sprites already exist and are well done, I think changes to the roster should be minimal.

Not that I know of, but currently i am the only one actively creating/improving sprites for Dunefolk. This happens here. So new unit suggestions technically shouldn be a problem, even if there are currently no sprites. Once something is agreed upon, I can do the sprite.

[Pentarctagon]

Regardless of what might or might not end up happening with the Jinn, for right now, is anyone opposed to changing the Falcon to reduce its cost and remove its attacks?

An alternative for this concept would be to have random alignments. For example: Soldier would be either Lawfull or Liminal with a chance of 50%. Optionally you could weightn the chances for every unit differently.
But it seems very counter-intuitive and ,as mentioned, i wouldn know how practical it would be ...

So afterall, maybe its not such a good idea.

I'd agree with that. It would inevitably lead to people quickly using a unit(or just not looking closely enough) thinking it's lawful when it's liminal, or vice versa.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

Has anyone thought about implementing ToD modifiers as race-specific traits?

I don't know how practical this would be, but i find this concept very interesting and think it should be more discussed here - wether it could replace liminal alignment or not.

For the record, I'm 99% sure that it's possible in the engine. Even if apply_to=alignment isn't natively supported, it should be possible to add it in Lua via wesnoth.effects.

I'm not going to make any argument over whether or not it's a good idea, though.

[holius]

Regardless of what might or might not end up happening with the Jinn, for right now, is anyone opposed to changing the Falcon to reduce its cost and remove its attacks?

I'm not sure I understand which problem is meant to be solved by such a change. It certainly makes Water Control a bigger problem. So I suppose that it's meant to change the Village grabbing balance in a positive way. Yet I don't see the problem there is today with Village grabbing. Is it inter faction balance, or intra-faction balance/gameplay ?

In the early days of the Khalifate faction, the Falcon seemed to be over used, and suffered nerf after nerf (see the changelog in http://files.wesnoth.org/addons/1.9/Era ... te.tar.bz2 ). What would be expected from the proposed change in terms of gameplay and balance ?

[The_Gnat]

I'm not sure I understand which problem is meant to be solved by such a change. It certainly makes Water Control a bigger problem

I believe reducing the price of the falcon by a small amount and removing it's attacks would be a good idea because it would allow for the unit to be utilised as it currently exists. No one ever kills anything with the falcons and they die way too easily so if it had no attack it would at least be better priced for its abilities. I do agree that if it's price is reduced too much then it would be over used. For example some one pointed out if it costs too little it will pay for itself almost instantly by taking villages.

It does however offer also the advantage of a very unique no attack unit. However it would technically be impossible to advance and so I would remove it's advancement entirely.

I would support the falcon costing 8 gold with no attacks and slightly better resistances.

However, if we are talking about changing the dune folk scouts I see no reason to leave the linimal Rider at only 7 MP. It is too expensive to not be a full fledged scout. And in its current form I believe it is under powered. If the falcon's attacks are removed it would exist as the only scout who actually can attack things and I believe it would reveal that it is considerably worse than its cheap adversaries. A straight comparison to the Elvish Scouts reveals two units who attack similar (with the dune rider better at liminal times of day, but the scout with considerably better defences) but the scout moves 2 faster which is a massive difference when considering its much lower movement costs. I would pay that extra 2 gold to get the scout every time.

It would inevitably lead to people quickly using a unit(or just not looking closely enough) thinking it's lawful when it's liminal, or vice versa.

I believe someone was commenting about liminal being too complicated currently and while I disagree I can definitely see a new mechanic that randomised ToD bonuses easily causing confusion. Furthermore I believe it could add too much luck because liminal is better than lawful since it had no down side any more. So basically if you are lucky you have a good army who fights well together and is really powerful.. or maybe you don't. I see that as a reduction of strategy without actually solving any of the problems liminal has.

Also I was wondering if fearless is still a trait for the liminal and if it is not pointless because they never reciever a ToD penalty.

Considering that sprites already exist and are well done, I think changes to the roster should be minimal.

I definitely agree. And if we could consider the dune folk units I believe there are a number of very unique units who just need better balance. The Herbalist is the only healer without range and the best lvl 1 healer in the game. He is the back bone of my army every time. The Soldier has marksman on melee which is just a great idea and combats many of the other faction's good defence units Ike the assassin. The Piercer has a massive attack that hits once which is unique but also makes sense. Then they have the Burner with fire on both melee and range. And the falcon who is soon to be the only units without any attacks.

Almost all of there units (and more than other factions have) are really unique and interesting. I like the dune folk's current roster and I merely believe it needs better balance and more cohesion so that the liminal alignment units work better together. The main problem IMO is that the liminal units Herbalist, Rider, Rover are not string enough to actually attack in waves and so the liminal currently is not able to be effectively used. I believe the best three attacking units in the dune folk are all lawful. If instead either the Piercer or soldier were liminal then the liminal branch of the faction would actually have a strong unit. Alternatively the addition of a lvl 1 spearman that gyphe proposed could add a stronger line holding melee unit to the liminal branch allowing for more strategic planning around the liminal alignment. What do you think?

[ghype]

Regardless of what might or might not end up happening with the Jinn, for right now, is anyone opposed to changing the Falcon to reduce its cost and remove its attacks?

if we'd figive rider +1mp , then the falcon became pretty useless. not matter if it has attacks or not, if it costs 6g or not.

[The_Gnat]

if we'd figive rider +1mp , then the falcon became pretty useless. not matter if it has attacks or not, if it costs 6g or not.

That is a good point Personally I believe it is no good to leave the rider as it is because it is under powered, but instead of increasing its movement we could give it some other buff, that wouldn't undermine the falcon as much.

As the discussion continues, while I do believe the falcon would be better if it was cheaper, I wonder if the falcon really has any place in the dune folk? Perhaps the Jinni should be added to replace the falcon because the falcon really doesn't solve or improve the main unbalances and bad match ups the dune folk have? Giving them a super cheap scout with no attack is basically saying that the other units are over priced because the falcon will contribute nothing else to strategy.

I still don't think the Jinni should replace the Burner but I believe it could assist in some match ups depending on how it is implemented, and also provide the water control discussed. Also if it is the slower scout then the Rider could be buffed to move faster while still allowing two unique units. Furthermore a second unit with fire would improve the undead match up and the improved scouts would improve almost every match up by allowing the dune folk to actually hold their villages. The Jinni would also be more interesting then a falcon spam.

[Pentarctagon]

For water control, a wyvern rider line could also be added rather than a jinn line, which would also fit much better with their current race description.

[The_Gnat]

True but I don't believe water control is there only issue and preferably any larger changes such as adding a new unit into the mix would be attempts to resolve the match up issues the faction has.

But that said, I do agree a wyvern rider would fit thematically into the dune folk better. What sort if attacks are we envisioning it to have?

[name]

The wyvern is a product of european mythology rather than near eastern. Thematically, the jinni is a much better fit for the faction.

Further, dragon type creatures in wesnoth are weak to piercing attacks which does no favors to balancing the loyalist-dunefolk match up.

[Caladbolg]

The more this conversation goes on, the more it seems that the falcon has no place in Dunefolk. Jinn would fit, but the Dunefolk already have a fire unit, and having a spirit of fire be used for water control seems odd. Unsure about wyverns.

What about Naga Archer? Great movement on water and sand and ranged poison attack. It'd allow for water control, it wouldn't be totally useless on land, it'd have poison (which imo would be too much on herbalist) and it'd give Dunefolk some interactions with other races. Ofc, stats would probably have to be tweaked a bit, maybe -1 mp and weaker melee etc., but it's an option to consider.

[ghype]

What about Naga Archer?

we are currently discussing how a naga-ish unit would fid into DF. It surely would not be a archer unit since DF has enough ranged/archery units.
It probably would be liminal too and have a very distinguishable appearance comparing to the mermains and nagas in wesnoth. it also would wear DF specific armours. there are some concept sprites for that unit, but nothin I would share publicly yet, it would need much more polishing.

So no archer. if we give it a blade it would be too close to naga. a spear would remind too much to spear figher/spear througher and a mage would remind to mermaid. Maybe it could have a supportive role with slow/poison or something else.
It is not easy to come up with an original concept for another merfolk/naga unit.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

1. While it's true that the wyvern is not a product of near-eastern mythology, I don't think that really matters - we can mix and match as much as we want. That said, the argument about the wyvern being weak to pierce might be relevant.
2. I can see the point about it being weird to use a fire unit (Jinn) for water control, but personally I don't have a problem with it, if that's what people want.
3. Adding a naga does sound like a great idea, as our discussion of their lore suggested that they have alliances with nearby naga tribes. I don't think the argument against the various weapons is reasonable though (except the bow). I'd say a hypothetical new Dunefolk-allied naga should use a spear or a sword even if they are a mage type (as bludgeoning weapons are not as effective underwater) and does not need to wear Dunefolk-themed armour (there can be some influence, but the nagas are only allies, so they probably make their own armour). I'd also be tempted to make it lawful rather than liminal.

[ghype]

3. if they are part of an alliance and not directly part of DF, this would allow much more freedom of choice designing that unit.

This was already recently discussed on the IRC channel. Wintermute / happygrue is trying to contact sleepwalker to ask him which ones he deems ready to be mainlined.

there was this attempt of contacting Sleepwalker in 2014. Was there any follow up on that, wether he or anyone else is working on DF sprites?

[Pentarctagon]

I think a naga unit could be made more unique by the exact weapon it uses as well. For example, if its spear was made from a sea serpent fang or the spine of some other deep sea creature rather than a generic spear or trident, and from that they also inflict poison while doing less immediate damage. It could then also be mentioned in their unit description that "while their weapons are not as durable as those made of stone or steel, the potent poison stored within more than makes up for this, allowing them to subdue opponents far larger and stronger than themselves", or something along those lines.