The project to save the Age of Heroes

[The_Gnat]

Tactically the lvl1s have a unique role as they could be used as fodder to delay the enemy or to get the lasthits to level up quickly and have a lvl2 unit without investing much gold. As long as your AoH version is in the testing phase it's propably better to keep the recruit list small.

Yes i agree, the only reason i even would consider not putting level 1's in is because this is the 'Age of Heroes', and that almost misses the point. If you want to have level 1 units i feel you should be playing the default era. (however this is just my opinion and it is silly to make a change that i am the only one who agrees with)

Especially scouts should have their lvl 1 version to grab villages quickly without having to spend 30+ gold.

But i do agree, for example the loyalist knight costs 40 gold, there is no way this is a sustainable scout unit when fighting the undead with bats costing only half that.

Maybe part of the balance will be the cheap level 1 units that certain teams have.

[Shiki]

What makes the AoH interesting for me is that you can play the awesome lvl2 units directly. I'm more confused by the long list and not really knowing if it's now better to go with lvl1s or 2s.

[The_Gnat]

What makes the AoH interesting for me is that you can play the awesome lvl2 units directly. I'm more confused by the long list and not really knowing if it's now better to go with lvl1s or 2s.

Thats what i always have believe also, but it seems that many people think otherwise so i will create a poll!

[Vyncyn]

Just another idea that speak for including at least some lvl1 units: Leadership units (elvish captain, goblin rouser) would be pretty useless without lower level units.

[The_Gnat]

Just another idea that speak for including at least some lvl1 units: Leadership units (elvish captain, goblin rouser) would be pretty useless without lower level units.

Again that is true! We will see what happens, the main problem i foresee is that if we fill up the recruit list again it becomes increasingly hard to balance. Which is the reason i reduced it in the first place. Currently the mainline AOH has about 20 units on the recruit list of each team, though i do support having many units i believe it would be better to have one era entitled the Age of Heroes Full and one entitled the Age of Heroes Balanced.

I personally believe balance is the number one priority, which is the reason i have decided to attempt to fix the Age of Heroes, and i would sacrifice many units, even level 2 units to achieve it. We already have a era with many good units but it has very little balance, i do not want to make a duplicate, with only very minor improvement.

Once again i say i am not set in stone and i would be very happy if both balance and every unit could be included in the new AOH!

[zookeeper]

Disclaimer: I don't play much multiplayer of any kind, not to mention AoH.

I've always felt that the 15-20 unit recruit lists are very unwieldy. Of course lvl1 units have a role for abovementioned reasons, but I don't really see why they should all be available. Same for lvl2 units, really. As far as I see it, AoH factions could have a balanced mix of both (maybe about max 15 units each?), the specifics depending on faction. For example, Northerners would of course have grunts and whelps but maybe not rocklobbers, whereas Rebels could have sorceresses and druids but no shamans, and so on.

Having all lvl1 units from Default Era + all of their advancements makes for a huge amount of different unit combinations and potential recruit strategies, I'd say too many. To me it'd make sense to at least try to trim redundant units; if you're practically always better off getting two grunts than one warrior, then either get rid of the warrior or lower its cost so that it becomes a sensible choice again.

[The_Gnat]

@ zookeeper, thank you for your feedback! I agree.

[Vyncyn]

Makes sense to me to cut all unit that don't fulfull any unique role, like if you already have druids as healers and maybe elvish fighters as cheap meatshield you don't need any shamans

I've tried to put togehter a loyalist faction which, in my opinion, could be a good compromise between including some lvl1 units and keeping the size low.

Spoiler:

Cavalary man (cheap scout)
Dragoon (quick reinforcements)
Horseman/Lancer (Huge Damage)
Knight (Huge Damage with the option to play save)
Spearman (cheap unit to reinforce/protect higher units; Javelineer wouldn't have an unique role anymore so I left him out)
Swordsman (relatively cheap blade)
Pikeman (relatively cheap pierce)
Fencer/Duelist (Skirmisher)
Shock Trooper (Tank)
Longbowman (Pierce range damage)
Red Mage (Fire damage, high Damage)
White Mage (Healer)
Merman Warrior (Water unit)
Lieutenant (leadership for spearmen)

total: 14 units

If the faction is too strong lvl 2 units (Duelist,Lancer,Javelineer) might be better because they force the player to invest more. E.g the Fencer already has the Skirmisher ability and his upgraded damage and hp on lvl 2 don't give a big bonus to his role; Horseman still has good damage on lvl1 (and could recieve a bonus from the lieutenant), so Lancer doesn't add much more to the faction.

If you want I could try to make a setup for the other factions aswell (as a general guideline, which you can ignore if you disagree).

[Eagle_11]

How about you let the player pick which unit's lvl2 form he/she wishes to recruit instead ? At game begin you'd have an 'pick your lvl 2's' phase like playing with 'Pick Your recruits' addon, there get to choose which lvl2 forms will override it's lvl1, also making it unavailable to recruit. At phase end check which units have no any lvl2 form picked and deliver their lvl1 form into recruit list, otherwise add chosen lvl2 picks.

[The_Gnat]

How about you let the player pick which unit's lvl2 form he/she wishes to recruit instead ? At game begin you'd have an 'pick your lvl 2's' phase like playing with 'Pick Your recruits' addon, there get to choose which lvl2 forms will override it's lvl1, also making it unavailable to recruit. At phase end check which units have no any lvl2 form picked and deliver their lvl1 form into recruit list, otherwise add chosen lvl2 picks.

That is a very good idea, however the goal of this project was to attempt to create a balanced era (with level 2 units) that in balanced maps and two teams would have a fair battle.

It would be impossible to create such a balance if the players picked their recruits. This said, it is a good idea for another add-on because it allows a full enjoyment of all the units in wesnoth (in fact i believe a add-on with a pick-your-own-recruits has already been created).

Makes sense to me to cut all unit that don't fulfull any unique role, like if you already have druids as healers and maybe elvish fighters as cheap meatshield you don't need any shamans

I like your idea, i think that is a good way to proceed at this point, if you want to create lists for the other units that would be great. Thank you!

If the faction is too strong lvl 2 units (Duelist,Lancer,Javelineer) might be better because they force the player to invest more. E.g the Fencer already has the Skirmisher ability and his upgraded damage and hp on lvl 2 don't give a big bonus to his role; Horseman still has good damage on lvl1 (and could recieve a bonus from the lieutenant), so Lancer doesn't add much more to the faction.

I agree, this is the list (modified from your list) that i would propose for the loyalists, (only minor changes that you had already considered except the pikeman).

Spoiler:

Cavalary man (cheap scout)
Dragoon (quick reinforcements)
Knight (Huge Damage with the option to play save) //removed the lancer, horseman because this unit can fulfill the role of huge damage the horseman is to expensive to be a cheap scout while being not powerful enough, versus other level 2 units to charge as a huge damage
Spearman (cheap unit to reinforce/protect higher units)
Swordsman (relatively cheap blade)
Javelineer (pierce unit, filling the role of mixed fighter which the loyalists do not have other wise) //the only reason i would consider putting the pikeman in instead is because it advances to level 3
Duelist (Skirmisher) //duelist instead of fencer to not allow to cheap skirmisher
Shock Trooper (Tank)
Longbowman (Pierce range damage)
Red Mage (Fire damage, high Damage)
White Mage (Healer)
Merman Warrior (Water unit)
Lieutenant (leadership for spearmen)

[Vyncyn]

Rebels

Spoiler:

Fighter (cheap unit)
Hero (main melee damage)
Captain (Leader)
(Archer)
Marksman (High Ranged Damage)
Ranger (balanced range/melee damage, Ambush)
Druid (Healer, Slow)
Sorceress (Arcane Magical)
Scout (Cheap scout)
Rider (Better sout)
Elder Wose (Tank)
Merman Spearman/Netcaster (Water unit)

Total: 11-13 units
Since the Rebels are already a smaller faction than loyalists they don't have to be cut down that much. Human Mages are excluded since Druid/Sorceress already fulfill that role (as I've seen you already did this in you setup). The Mermens could be included both since they are kinda different. Also the lvl1 Archer might not have a specific role, but I think he would best represent the Elves and could have some use paired with the captain.

Northerners

Spoiler:

Grunt (meatshield)
Warrior (best melee)
(Troll Whelp) (there are better tanks, but since I didn't include the Rocklobber people might want him)
Troll (best tank)
Wolf Rider (cheap scout)
Goblin Knight (better scout)
Goblin Pillager (slow, fire damage)
Orcish Crossbowman (best ranged, fire damage)
Orcish Slayer (poison)
Naga Warrior (water unit)
Goblin Impaler (cheap pierce damage)

Total 10-11 units
Goblin Knight might not be important

Undead

Spoiler:

Skeleton ("meat"shield)
Revenant (basic melee damage)
Deathblade (a bit faster; only including him because the faction isn't super big)
Bone Shooter (basic ranged damage)
(Walking Corpse) (plague without wasting exp completely, but he might be cut aswell)
Soulless (plague)
Wraith (upgraded ghost)
Shadow (assassin unit in this faction; maybe cut him for balance reasons if the faction is too strong)
(Vampire Bat) (cheap scout, but might be cut since the bloodbat is still relatively cheap)
Blood Bat (scout)
Necrophage (poison, better resistance)
Dark Sorcerer (main ranged damage, unique damage types)

10-12 units
I guess Skeleton as lvl1 unit would best represent the faction, but ghouls could be better tanks. On the other hand giving the player access to lvl1 poison unit might be too strong.

Knalgans

Spoiler:

Dwarvish Stalwart (tank)
Dwarvish Fighter/Dwarvish Guardsman (fodder; the Fighter is porpably a better representation while the Guardsman is a better tank)
Dwarvish Steelclad (strong melee unit)
Dwarvish Berserker (berserker)
Dwarvish Thunderguard (ranged damage)
Rogue (Skirmisher, better evasion on non-mountains)
Trapper (reliable ranged damage, useful outside of mountains)
Outlaw (better evasion on non-mountains)
Poacher/Footpad/Thief (meatshield outside of mountains; Poacher would be my favourite option as he has range damage, which is a nice contrast to the lvl1 dwarvish fighter)
Gryphon Rider (cheap scout, flying/water unit, the knalgans really need that one since the gryphon Master is quite expensive)
Gryphon Master (better scout/water unit)

11 units
Of course I know the Gryphon isn't really a water unit, but he is the only one in this faction that can move there unrestricted.
Additionally you could include dwarvish pathfinder and/or the bandit.

Drakes

Spoiler:

Fire Drake (ranged)
Flare (leader)
Drake Fighter/Drake Clasher (fodder; again fighter is better representation, clasher better tank)
Drake Warrior (mixed fighter)
Drake Arbiter (tank, better damage than thrasher)
Drake Thrasher( tank, more damage types)
Drake Glider (cheap scout)
Sky Drake (better scout)
(Saurian Skirmisher) (could be a representation for the saurians, but might be too strong to include a cheap skirmisher)
Saurian Ambusher (chaotic melee with skirmisher)
Saurian Soothsayer(cures)
(Saurian Oracle) (worse healer but better damage than soothsayer)

10-12 units
I haven't played them as much. Since they are a relatively small faction you could include all lvl 2 units.

I don't have specific suggestions on the khalifate, but based on the other factions I think you should include two lvl1 units (cannonfodder and a cheap sout)

[The_Gnat]

Thank you very much! This is really helpful, I like what you have done. I will have a look through it, seeing that other factions have around 12 i might remove 1 or so units from the loyalists team to make it similar.

[Lord-Knightmare]

I am really impressed at what you guys are trying to do here.
Here is my suggestion for the Loyalists:
Please, please, and just please buff up the General...Or, remove it from the leader list...Apart from the leadership, he is the most pathetic level 3 unit in the game. 50 HP, and a melee dmg equivalent to a level 2...I always roll Royal Guard over him.
Also, remove Ogre from the recruit list, as the Shock Trooper is a better tank and has more damage.
A summary would be:

Recruit list:

01. Spearman (meat shield and you want the Pikeman, right?)
02. Swordsman (best melee at an affordable cost)
03. Shock Trooper (tank / Did not suggest HI since, as it does not have multiple advancements)
04. Red Mage (far superior to mage, and you also have White mage so no point in giving mage as recruit)
05. White Mage (healer - plus undead counter)
06. Longbowman (ranged DPS)
07. Duelist (far superior to the Fencer)
08. Horseman (because some players might want Lancer - like I do)
09. Dragoon (scout)
10. Knight (Because...it's the LOYALISTS)
11. Merman Warrior
So, it's just 11 units

Leader:

Royal Guard, Master Bowman, Halberdier, Iron Mauler (inclusion pending), Arch Mage (not leaning to include the Silver Mage since it's too resistant to magic damage)

Did not include the Mage of Light here because of the illumination (an ability favoured by the faction) and low HP. The General was omitted because...well, it's weak AF. Leadership omission would not be an issue as factions such as KA, Northerners and Undead do fairly well without it.

[The_Gnat]

I am really impressed at what you guys are trying to do here.
Here is my suggestion for the Loyalists:
Please, please, and just please buff up the General...Or, remove it from the leader list...Apart from the leadership, he is the most pathetic level 3 unit in the game. 50 HP, and a melee dmg equivalent to a level 2...I always roll Royal Guard over him.
Also, remove Ogre from the recruit list, as the Shock Trooper is a better tank and has more damage.

Thank you for all your suggestions! Every ones feedback is really helpful! The only thing is i probably won't include the horseman. Not because i don't like you but because it doesn't fill a unique role and it is better to have the cavalryman as a cheap scout.

(P.S i totally agree about the general)

[Vyncyn]

I will have a look through it, seeing that other factions have around 12 i might remove 1 or so units from the loyalists team to make it similar.

If you cut someone from the list I made I'd suggest Dragoon (if you include the cavalaryman) and/or Lieutenant.

(not leaning to include the Silver Mage since it's too resistant to magic damage)

Not to forget that his teleport ability is impossible to balance, which is why he was thrown out as leader from mainline at some point.

As for all leaders, I'd generally leave it as they are now, but remove everyone with hard to balance abilities (e.g. Elvish Avenger, Mage of Light).
Buffing the General might have some influence on campaigns. It's propably best to just kick him out of multiplayer or increase his hp a little.