The project to save the Age of Heroes
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Re: The Age of Heroes: hopeless? dead? or still worth saving
Yes i agree, the only reason i even would consider not putting level 1's in is because this is the 'Age of Heroes', and that almost misses the point. If you want to have level 1 units i feel you should be playing the default era. (however this is just my opinion and it is silly to make a change that i am the only one who agrees with)Vyncyn wrote:Tactically the lvl1s have a unique role as they could be used as fodder to delay the enemy or to get the lasthits to level up quickly and have a lvl2 unit without investing much gold. As long as your AoH version is in the testing phase it's propably better to keep the recruit list small.
But i do agree, for example the loyalist knight costs 40 gold, there is no way this is a sustainable scout unit when fighting the undead with bats costing only half that.Vyncyn wrote:Especially scouts should have their lvl 1 version to grab villages quickly without having to spend 30+ gold.
Maybe part of the balance will be the cheap level 1 units that certain teams have.
Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon.
Re: The Age of Heroes: hopeless? dead? or still worth saving
What makes the AoH interesting for me is that you can play the awesome lvl2 units directly. I'm more confused by the long list and not really knowing if it's now better to go with lvl1s or 2s.
Try out the dark board theme.
Re: The Age of Heroes: hopeless? dead? or still worth saving
Shiki wrote:What makes the AoH interesting for me is that you can play the awesome lvl2 units directly. I'm more confused by the long list and not really knowing if it's now better to go with lvl1s or 2s.
Thats what i always have believe also, but it seems that many people think otherwise so i will create a poll!
Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon.
Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
Just another idea that speak for including at least some lvl1 units: Leadership units (elvish captain, goblin rouser) would be pretty useless without lower level units.
Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
Again that is true! We will see what happens, the main problem i foresee is that if we fill up the recruit list again it becomes increasingly hard to balance. Which is the reason i reduced it in the first place. Currently the mainline AOH has about 20 units on the recruit list of each team, though i do support having many units i believe it would be better to have one era entitled the Age of Heroes Full and one entitled the Age of Heroes Balanced.Vyncyn wrote:Just another idea that speak for including at least some lvl1 units: Leadership units (elvish captain, goblin rouser) would be pretty useless without lower level units.
I personally believe balance is the number one priority, which is the reason i have decided to attempt to fix the Age of Heroes, and i would sacrifice many units, even level 2 units to achieve it. We already have a era with many good units but it has very little balance, i do not want to make a duplicate, with only very minor improvement.
Once again i say i am not set in stone and i would be very happy if both balance and every unit could be included in the new AOH!
Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon.
Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
Disclaimer: I don't play much multiplayer of any kind, not to mention AoH.
I've always felt that the 15-20 unit recruit lists are very unwieldy. Of course lvl1 units have a role for abovementioned reasons, but I don't really see why they should all be available. Same for lvl2 units, really. As far as I see it, AoH factions could have a balanced mix of both (maybe about max 15 units each?), the specifics depending on faction. For example, Northerners would of course have grunts and whelps but maybe not rocklobbers, whereas Rebels could have sorceresses and druids but no shamans, and so on.
Having all lvl1 units from Default Era + all of their advancements makes for a huge amount of different unit combinations and potential recruit strategies, I'd say too many. To me it'd make sense to at least try to trim redundant units; if you're practically always better off getting two grunts than one warrior, then either get rid of the warrior or lower its cost so that it becomes a sensible choice again.
I've always felt that the 15-20 unit recruit lists are very unwieldy. Of course lvl1 units have a role for abovementioned reasons, but I don't really see why they should all be available. Same for lvl2 units, really. As far as I see it, AoH factions could have a balanced mix of both (maybe about max 15 units each?), the specifics depending on faction. For example, Northerners would of course have grunts and whelps but maybe not rocklobbers, whereas Rebels could have sorceresses and druids but no shamans, and so on.
Having all lvl1 units from Default Era + all of their advancements makes for a huge amount of different unit combinations and potential recruit strategies, I'd say too many. To me it'd make sense to at least try to trim redundant units; if you're practically always better off getting two grunts than one warrior, then either get rid of the warrior or lower its cost so that it becomes a sensible choice again.
Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
@ zookeeper, thank you for your feedback! I agree.
Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon.
Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
Makes sense to me to cut all unit that don't fulfull any unique role, like if you already have druids as healers and maybe elvish fighters as cheap meatshield you don't need any shamans
I've tried to put togehter a loyalist faction which, in my opinion, could be a good compromise between including some lvl1 units and keeping the size low.
If you want I could try to make a setup for the other factions aswell (as a general guideline, which you can ignore if you disagree).
I've tried to put togehter a loyalist faction which, in my opinion, could be a good compromise between including some lvl1 units and keeping the size low.
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Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
How about you let the player pick which unit's lvl2 form he/she wishes to recruit instead ? At game begin you'd have an 'pick your lvl 2's' phase like playing with 'Pick Your recruits' addon, there get to choose which lvl2 forms will override it's lvl1, also making it unavailable to recruit. At phase end check which units have no any lvl2 form picked and deliver their lvl1 form into recruit list, otherwise add chosen lvl2 picks.
Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
That is a very good idea, however the goal of this project was to attempt to create a balanced era (with level 2 units) that in balanced maps and two teams would have a fair battle.Eagle_11 wrote:How about you let the player pick which unit's lvl2 form he/she wishes to recruit instead ? At game begin you'd have an 'pick your lvl 2's' phase like playing with 'Pick Your recruits' addon, there get to choose which lvl2 forms will override it's lvl1, also making it unavailable to recruit. At phase end check which units have no any lvl2 form picked and deliver their lvl1 form into recruit list, otherwise add chosen lvl2 picks.
It would be impossible to create such a balance if the players picked their recruits. This said, it is a good idea for another add-on because it allows a full enjoyment of all the units in wesnoth (in fact i believe a add-on with a pick-your-own-recruits has already been created).
I like your idea, i think that is a good way to proceed at this point, if you want to create lists for the other units that would be great. Thank you!Vyncyn wrote:Makes sense to me to cut all unit that don't fulfull any unique role, like if you already have druids as healers and maybe elvish fighters as cheap meatshield you don't need any shamans
I agree, this is the list (modified from your list) that i would propose for the loyalists, (only minor changes that you had already considered except the pikeman).Vyncyn wrote:If the faction is too strong lvl 2 units (Duelist,Lancer,Javelineer) might be better because they force the player to invest more. E.g the Fencer already has the Skirmisher ability and his upgraded damage and hp on lvl 2 don't give a big bonus to his role; Horseman still has good damage on lvl1 (and could recieve a bonus from the lieutenant), so Lancer doesn't add much more to the faction.
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Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon.
Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
Rebels
Northerners
Undead
Knalgans
Drakes
I don't have specific suggestions on the khalifate, but based on the other factions I think you should include two lvl1 units (cannonfodder and a cheap sout)
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Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
Thank you very much! This is really helpful, I like what you have done. I will have a look through it, seeing that other factions have around 12 i might remove 1 or so units from the loyalists team to make it similar.
Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon.
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Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
I am really impressed at what you guys are trying to do here.
Here is my suggestion for the Loyalists:
Please, please, and just please buff up the General...Or, remove it from the leader list...Apart from the leadership, he is the most pathetic level 3 unit in the game. 50 HP, and a melee dmg equivalent to a level 2...I always roll Royal Guard over him.
Also, remove Ogre from the recruit list, as the Shock Trooper is a better tank and has more damage.
A summary would be:
Here is my suggestion for the Loyalists:
Please, please, and just please buff up the General...Or, remove it from the leader list...Apart from the leadership, he is the most pathetic level 3 unit in the game. 50 HP, and a melee dmg equivalent to a level 2...I always roll Royal Guard over him.
Also, remove Ogre from the recruit list, as the Shock Trooper is a better tank and has more damage.
A summary would be:
Recruit list:
Leader:
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Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
Thank you for all your suggestions! Every ones feedback is really helpful! The only thing is i probably won't include the horseman. Not because i don't like you but because it doesn't fill a unique role and it is better to have the cavalryman as a cheap scout.Lord-Knightmare wrote:I am really impressed at what you guys are trying to do here.
Here is my suggestion for the Loyalists:
Please, please, and just please buff up the General...Or, remove it from the leader list...Apart from the leadership, he is the most pathetic level 3 unit in the game. 50 HP, and a melee dmg equivalent to a level 2...I always roll Royal Guard over him.
Also, remove Ogre from the recruit list, as the Shock Trooper is a better tank and has more damage.
(P.S i totally agree about the general)
Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon.
Re: The project to save the Age of Heroes
If you cut someone from the list I made I'd suggest Dragoon (if you include the cavalaryman) and/or Lieutenant.The_Gnat wrote:I will have a look through it, seeing that other factions have around 12 i might remove 1 or so units from the loyalists team to make it similar.
Not to forget that his teleport ability is impossible to balance, which is why he was thrown out as leader from mainline at some point.Lord-Knightmare wrote:(not leaning to include the Silver Mage since it's too resistant to magic damage)
As for all leaders, I'd generally leave it as they are now, but remove everyone with hard to balance abilities (e.g. Elvish Avenger, Mage of Light).
Buffing the General might have some influence on campaigns. It's propably best to just kick him out of multiplayer or increase his hp a little.