Ladder Council

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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ForPeace
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by ForPeace » April 16th, 2016, 7:07 pm

I had previously thought that changing orcs' keep into an impassable wall was a better choice but after doing it in the map editor it looked much worse - even not worth a screenshot - so I vote for Mint's version.
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Krogen
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Krogen » April 17th, 2016, 1:33 pm

I don't know, i like the second one. So I vote for Horus2's version.
Mint's version just doesn't fit to the atmosphere of the map.
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Mint
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Mint » April 19th, 2016, 3:55 pm

@ eagle_11

The reason for those mushrooms in the central region of the map were to weaken the cavalrymen and horsemen of the loyalists, as well as to give a boost to skeletons. The speed and power of the horsemen and cavalrymen on this map is quite impressive, and the undead have trouble since they're so slow, so it's a good terrain for a mix of buff and nerf, not that those two extra mushrooms made a huge difference. The extra break in the impassable does also negate the slowing effect of the mushroom on the horses. Orcs are also nerfed from this, but that is not such a big issue. It is nice to see some interest in the map :)

Some time in the future it may have a redesign to make the map asymmetric, as currently P1 has quite an advantage since there are is odd number of villages while the map is mostly symmetrical.




With the Walls of Pyrennis, it's a little less obvious from how Horus cropped those screenshots, but my intention was also to change the passable orcish castle block at (16,17) into snowy encampment, since this also provides a better contrast, and this can just be seen from the screenshot. This does interfere with the theme of the map, however there are already human snowy castle hexes dotted around the map, so I think it's still not too far out of place. This extra block of castle is also why I had the raised keep instead of the flatter keep mix I think Dreadnough is suggesting. If the flatter keep was used I feel it looks too similar to the other block of castle.

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Mint
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Mint » April 19th, 2016, 3:56 pm

A classic map has seen some changes which shall be finalised some time soon, this time Fallenstar Lake.

The main focus of the changes were to make the map less campy (200+ gold banking is not unheard of), as well as reducing what is so much of the time a death sentence for the one who attacks first. An extra gap was added to the impassable mountain line, so now it is not so trivial to put up a overly strong defensive line. The castles were also shifted slightly, and the terrain around the mountain villages shuffled to nullify one of the 6mp leader advantages.
Fallenstar's new look:
Attachments
Fallenstar Lake Experimental.zip
The .map and .cfg data files
(1.66 KiB) Downloaded 262 times

Fosprey
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Fosprey » May 9th, 2016, 2:14 am

I dont understand how ladder games even exist, everytime i join online its seems impossible to find people to play ladder. I dont even ever find any active ladder game.

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ForPeace
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by ForPeace » May 9th, 2016, 4:13 am

Well, they do exist. If you can't find any, they are usually played on 1.12 official server and the most often in UTC afternoons and evenings. Here's the game history of ladder: http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/gamehistory.php
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Cackfiend » May 9th, 2016, 6:53 am

Fosprey wrote:I dont understand how ladder games even exist, everytime i join online its seems impossible to find people to play ladder. I dont even ever find any active ladder game.

just name a game with 'Ladder' in the title and check to see if your opponent that joins has a ladder account
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

Fosprey
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Fosprey » May 14th, 2016, 1:07 am

Of course I join and create a game that says ladder, nobody ever joins, or i can find anyone playing a ladder game, everyone is playing survival maps.

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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Cackfiend » May 14th, 2016, 9:00 pm

Fosprey wrote:Of course I join and create a game that says ladder, nobody ever joins, or i can find anyone playing a ladder game, everyone is playing survival maps.
there are only 44 active ladder members unfortunately
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Horus2
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Horus2 » May 14th, 2016, 10:12 pm

Fosprey wrote:Of course I join and create a game that says ladder, nobody ever joins, or i can find anyone playing a ladder game, everyone is playing survival maps.
The proper way is to learn the name of the regular ladderers, and whisper them when you see them; they will be happy to accept your offer. The other common alternative is to join the observers of an ongoing ladder match. Every worthwhile ladder game has at least 2 players watching it, so it is the best meeting ground to arrange the next. It has been going this way for years. :)

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Horus2
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Horus2 » June 5th, 2016, 5:24 pm

Today i made a multiplayer modification called "MirrorMate", which is the remedy for the many mirror matchups that are discovered only after 3-4 turns of serious business. It does not prevent it, but warns the players so they can restart instantly. It seems to be bug-free and works with Sandbox Map Picker flawlessly, althought for default era only. If you are a ladder regular, i don't think that i have to praise it for pages long to make you understand the importance of this. You can download it from the add-on server.

Have fun!

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Horus2
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Horus2 » September 3rd, 2016, 10:49 am

Remember the analysis of the first hundred acknowledges games on Ruphus Isle? I am back with 40 replays, and new numbers to crunch! The 140th game was a major turning point, and below you can read why.
image of the map:
Y90GTNa.png
Rushus Isle statistics
  • First of all, collecting replays was a painful procedure. Since exposing the map to the ladder community instead of picking opponents, the overall quality of games plummeted. Please forgive my sardonic tone, but i had much greater expectations than that; less than half of the replays i watched were worthwhile to be evaluated, but around the time of introduction it was one-third. What i witnessed is the staggering lack of adaptation. It was too long since they got any changes to their game, and when it happened, they were not even able to properly grab villages! Never before i saw leaders going for 22,10 instead of the second keep, outright forgetting villages, and i witnessed defending key villages with scouts, and making last stands with a minor number disadvantage too many times.
  • Unfortunately, the previously solid P1 vs P2 comparison pie chart shows a small bias toward P2. Maybe the mathematicians can tell if this is still in the domain of standard deviation. Meanwhile i made a side preference chart showing the percentage difference between the performance of the two sides (so not the percentage of the percentage), so we can have a better look into it.
  • The 140th acknowledged game was a major turning point because the undisputed 6th faction beat the one with the most victories in a near flawless game. As a result, loyalists' propelled themselves up to the level of the other runner-ups with an extra 7%. Northerners secuded their advantage with +4%, while the bat terror, once being a definite favourite, fell out of the race for the top.
  • Bad matchups really took the toll on knalga. Their win:loss ratio is less than 1 against every faction and on each sides. With the exception of vs undead of course, where they obliterate them; they are even undefeated on the north side. This is a thing despite that i still consider it a dwarf-friendly map due to various reasons. If that does not scream factional imbalance, then the statistics for Hellhole will.
  • Little changed on the matchup chart. At least, the undead vs northerners got ironed out, and loyalists accumulated a few wins against knalga, and nothing became much worse than previously. Rebels vs drakes still lacks feedback.
  • Players still find knalga hard to play (their W:L ratio is better when i weight the replays, suggesting that they mostly lose due to inferior play). Drakes on ruphus are easy to play on an entry level (they have the best unweighted W:L ratio, but they have tight matches in the high elo territory). And then there are northerners, who recently won many high-level matches, and now enjoy celebrity status.
  • Maybe the most odd of the charts is the new side preference columns, which inform us that in contrary of our usual image, chaotic factions prefer to be P2. This is not much of a surprise for the initiated, because P2 side is indeed more defendable against first night rushes, as a design choice, yet it is funny to read. Then the numbers seemingly contradict themselves when they state a P1 preference for lawful factions. Ok, now what is this anomalia, you might ask. My educated guess is that if you build up a high village advantage on on side, you cannot fall back timely against the counter-offensive which follows on the other flank. The mobile lawfuls against chaotics have the power to both driving the vill-stealers back and threating the other flank. Rebels cannot apply that much pressure, thus earning the short end of the proverbial stick. The other neutral faction, knalga, can make a stand for different reasons, so they are largely unaffected.
  • In the future, northerners should be the faction i have to look out for. Their weighted P1 performance is very even against all factions (aprroximately 50% everywhere), but they have an obscenely high weighted win ratio when they are P2, around 70%! This is shocking, previously i did not have enough data for meaningful P1:P2 comparisons, so i am a bit puzzled. It also corresponds to the newly appeared global P2 bias. Maybe it solves itself after a few more plays, since drakes and undead also show a strong preference momentarity, so this might as well be insufficient data, but this warning sign will not be entirely neglected.
What are your thoughts?

gnombat
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by gnombat » September 3rd, 2016, 1:17 pm

Horus2 wrote:Unfortunately, the previously solid P1 vs P2 comparison pie chart shows a small bias toward P2. Maybe the mathematicians can tell if this is still in the domain of standard deviation.
Assuming the map is perfectly balanced, the chance of getting a bias that high in 140 trials is 35%.

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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Velensk » September 3rd, 2016, 2:41 pm

It doesn't surprise me in any way that knalgans have a weaker win rate in general, despite them being my favorite faction I've never felt that they were exceptionally strong with the exception of the undead match-up issue but I'm curious about your assertion that you think that that's a good knalgan map. To me it looks like the knalgans have a few advantages early but once the map starts to saturate, the central front looks like a nightmare for knalgans to mount any pressure.

Of course, that is a frequent issue that knalgans have on many maps so it could be viewed as a faction imbalance.
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ForPeace
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by ForPeace » September 4th, 2016, 11:39 am

Horus2 wrote:
  • Bad matchups really took the toll on knalga. Their win:loss ratio is less than 1 against every faction and on each sides. With the exception of vs undead of course, where they obliterate them; they are even undefeated on the north side. This is a thing despite that i still consider it a dwarf-friendly map due to various reasons. If that does not scream factional imbalance, then the statistics for Hellhole will.
Perhaps it happens because p2/south has smaller ability to move units from one side to another in defense which makes slow dwarves suffer. Maybe I'm not as experienced as you and most of other ladder players, but in my opinion Ruphus Isle isn't the best map for Knalga because of the wide front, and like Velensk said, such things often happen to Knalga on bigger maps.
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